Iran's Ahmadinejad Requests Meeting With Pope

[kujo]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1546845' date='May 28 2008, 05:45 PM']Once we announced a timeline of attacking Iran, they would know the game was up. It would be now or never against Israel, and they'd go for it. Why not? The sheriff already put out a warrent and is raiding the hole-up, might as well take their worst enemy with them, right? Sure, they'd fight their hardest against us, but from what I've heard citizens there are even more pro-US than Iraqis. No matter where we are there are going to be guerillas. We can't escape it, if that is the method of fighting they chose. Warning them to move their citizens will only get the baddies out of there, too. They're smart enough to stick with civilians. That way we think twice before sending a bomb their way. Talking about going in and "throwing our weight around" is ridiculous. You don't think the generals and troops in Iraq have been trying to do just that? The people we are fighting are not stupid. We can't just go in and kill every single one of them, they're too smart for that. Our military DOEs focus on "improving strategic weapons". Ask my parents. One of them used to help design weapons for the government. The other audits the nuclear weapons parts manufacturer. Why can't you understand that we ARE trying our hardest in Iraq, and that we can't eliminate them all just by deciding to do it?

You have a very low opinion of the enemy's intelligence and also of our military's decision making. I would also like to reiterate that I VERY MUCH DOUBT Papa Bennie would be all for a preemptive strike on Iran.[/quote]

I think you misunderstand the intent behind striking Iran. I don't want to kill any "baddies." I want to destroy the nuclear facilities they are building. It would be a surgical strike that really ought not to kill anybody.

I said nothing of Iraq, dude. I know that we are doing our best and I wish it didn't have to be the way it is. Our servicemen and women are amazing and I wish they didn't have to do what they are doing now. I am trying to make it so that, in this particular situation (Iran) they don't have to do much of anything. They've more than served what they are called to do in Iraq and should be heralded as heroes.

Finally, just because the Pope is against a preemptive strike, doesn't mean that I have to be. I think that the Pope might be open to it if we could demonstrate that all steps were being taken to minimize the loss of life involved in such this airstrike. But, if he didn't, I would have to respectfully disagree.

[aalpha1989]

I apologize. I thought when you said this:

[quote name='kujo' post='1546778' date='May 28 2008, 04:22 PM']I'm in favor of what my friends and I call viking diplomacy. It's a return to the big carrot, big stick method that aims to keep the peace through incentives, but is not afraid to use overwhelming force to achieve strategic goals. We need to let countries know that we are not going to sit back and let them kick our asses all over the world anymore. We are putting our soldiers into situations that are comparable to what the British did during the Revolutionary War, fighting insurgents who engage in guerilla and terrorist tactics. I'm tired, like the rest of us, of long wars. Why can't we throw our weight around anymore? We should focus on improving and using our strategic weapons to achieve these goals.[/quote]

you were referring to Iraq. What, then, were you referring to?

And you think that Iran would just take it? They'd just be like, "ok, sure, you can just bomb these nuclear facilities we've been working on, we don't mind." I think there would definitely be some reaction, whether it was increased terrorism or an all-out war in the Middle East. Bombing them now would be a huge mistake.

Edited May 28, 2008 by aalpha1989

[kujo]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1546836' date='May 28 2008, 05:42 PM']I've gotta tell you:
#1 no one on this thread said *every* Muslim wants to kill him or her self.
#2 if someone did assume that every Muslim is a jihadist, it wouldn't be racist.
#3 when someone is a member of a sect (as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is) that believes that they must bring back their messiah through blood and chaos, concepts such as retribution or "mutually assured destruction" are not at play at all.[/quote]

#1 I didn't saying anyone did. I felt that his comment about this guy possibly harming the Pope was dumb and based on a pretty ignorant notion of Muslims.

#2 I corrected my use of "racist" to bigotted and ignorant.

#3 Read my previous responses. This guy isn't just some loon who stumbled his way into office. He is a keen politician who says what he does in order to be seen as the leader of and spokesman for all Muslims. He's appealing to Palestinians for the same reasons. If he props himself up as this glorified Ayatollah, he garners more power and influence. He's rational in the sense that he is not going to do something that would harm his place in the region. If we make it clear that pursuing a nuclear program would result in nothing but broken glass and wasted money (something Iran is not rolling in right now), he may back off. Or he might not. Who knows?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='kujo' post='1546895' date='May 28 2008, 05:03 PM']#2 I corrected my use of "racist" to bigotted and ignorant.

If we make it clear that pursuing a nuclear program would result in nothing but broken glass and wasted money (something Iran is not rolling in right now), he may back off. Or he might not. Who knows?[/quote]

He has thusfar demonstrated that he will not back off. He is a proud man in a proud country, he will not allow the West to dictate to him how to run it.

I didn't think that they were being bigotted. Maybe ignorant, but not about how Muslims in general work. Probably just about politicians. Ahmadinejad would not harm the Pope because it is a political meeting and he needs to appear to be sane to the world. I think this meeting is completely about appearances (on the part of hte Iranians). However, Ahmadinejad IS a radical Muslim who believes in suicide bombings. I do believe he has commended the Palistinian suicide bombers, at any rate. I think he's too cowardly to do anything himself, though.


I did not mean that all muslims believe in suicide bombings, only that some do, and that this guy is one who does. I know that there are peaceful Muslims. I am just clarifying because I realized my post did look a little "bigotted and ignorant".

Edited May 28, 2008 by aalpha1989

[kujo]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1546882' date='May 28 2008, 05:56 PM']I apologize. I thought when you said this:
you were referring to Iraq. What, then, were you referring to?

And you think that Iran would just take it? They'd just be like, "ok, sure, you can just bomb these nuclear facilities we've been working on, we don't mind." I think there would definitely be some reaction, whether it was increased terrorism or an all-out war in the Middle East. Bombing them now would be a huge mistake.[/quote]

No worries. I think most Iranians don't want this conflict. They don't want the sanctions, they don't want the hatred and they don't want to get attacked. We need to spook them into action, not ease them into it. We could even play this in such a way that this guy gets ousted from power. If we can make him seem to be acting against the best interests of his country, his power, influence (and position of power) could plummet. The attack could be unnecessary but we need to be willing to take action.

[kujo]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1546904' date='May 28 2008, 06:08 PM']He has thusfar demonstrated that he will not back off. He is a proud man in a proud country, he will not allow the West to dictate to him how to run it.

I didn't think that they were being bigotted. Maybe ignorant, but not about how Muslims in general work. Probably just about politicians. Ahmadinejad would not harm the Pope because it is a political meeting and he needs to appear to be sane to the world. I think this meeting is completely about appearances (on the part of hte Iranians). However, Ahmadinejad IS a radical Muslim who believes in suicide bombings. I do believe he has commended the Palistinian suicide bombers, at any rate. I think he's too cowardly to do anything himself, though.
I did not mean that all muslims believe in suicide bombings, only that some do, and that this guy is one who does. I know that there are peaceful Muslims. I am just clarifying because I realized my post did look a little "bigotted and ignorant". [/quote]

We are in complete agreement here my friend. I think pride has a lot to do with his decisions, and he also uses rhetoric to appear as the "afflicted one," a peaceful Muslim being bullied by the big, bad West; however, people in his country are not nearly as radical as he is.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='kujo' post='1546914' date='May 28 2008, 05:11 PM']We are in complete agreement here my friend. I think pride has a lot to do with his decisions, and he also uses rhetoric to appear as the "afflicted one," a peaceful Muslim being bullied by the big, bad West; however, people in his country are not nearly as radical as he is.[/quote]

I definitely agree with your assessment of the Iranian people.

[kujo]

[quote]Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad survived this month's parliamentary election without a big blow to his prestige, even if his core support base among a broad conservative camp shrank.

Now the president's opponents in the Islamic Republic, both from the reformist minority and the victorious conservatives, could force him to rein in populist spending policies seen as partly to blame for inflation hovering around 19 percent.

Since Ahmadinejad swept to power in 2005 promising to spread Iran's oil wealth to the people, soaring world oil prices have swelled national revenues, but economists say colossal subsidies and presidential handouts have predictably fuelled inflation.

Ahmadinejad is basking in support from Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei for his tough nuclear stance, but his economic record may dent his chances of re-election next year.

Iranians are cushioned by a vast array of costly subsidies, but runaway prices still hit the pockets of ordinary consumers.

“The prices of rice, meat, fruit and everything else have gone up,” complained Baqer Gabai, a 54-year-old retired teacher, in Tehran's Mohseni Square. “The price of chicken has doubled in six months, but my income has not changed a bit.”

Former Central Bank Governor Seyed Mohammad Hossein Adeli, who now heads a think-tank, said Ahmadinejad was aware of the danger and was already reverting to some more orthodox policies.

“He has helped the poor in some way with micro-attention,” he said of the president's habit of touring the provinces, receiving petitions and trying to address problems directly.

“But if you go and spend money and have a huge expansionary fiscal policy without limits, it pushes inflationary pressures.”

Adeli told Reuters the Central Bank was now pursuing “very concretionary policies” to correct this.

The previous Central Bank governor, Ebrahim Sheibani, quit last year over differences with Ahmadinejad over interest rate policy. The current governor, Tahmasb Mazaheri, has proposed bank loan repayment rates, or “profit-sharing” rates, based on inflation plus a fee -- a move analysts saw reversing a policy backed by Ahmadinejad that had sent rates below inflation.

Iran, the world's fourth-biggest crude producer, has raked in $70 billion in oil revenue in the past year, the government says. But much of the cash flows out in lavish subsidies on everything from fuel and transport to food and medicine.

“The system is buying loyalty to pursue its nuclear program,” economist Saeed Laylaz said.

Many of the subsidies are not targeted, which often means the rich benefit more than the poor because they consume more.

Adeli put the direct and indirect cost of fuel subsidies alone at $45 billion a year.

Lacking the refining capacity to meet domestic demand, Iran had been importing at least $5 billion worth of petrol a year, which was sold cheaply to the public, encouraging waste and smuggling.

To reduce the import bill, the government began rationing petrol last year. Last week, in an apparent bid to streamline the subsidy, rationing was temporarily relaxed to let drivers buy extra petrol for five times more than the subsidized price.

The new system could be extended, although the liberalized petrol price may also have a short-term inflationary effect.

"Taking away subsidies is no easy matter,” said Mohammad Ali Farzin, an Iranian economist who heads a United Nations Development Program poverty reduction unit. “The scale of the problem is just so overwhelming that it will take time.”

Ali Reza Cheloyan, a farmer in Ahmadinejad's home town of Aradan, east of Tehran, acknowledged his dependence on state assistance with fertilizer, tractors, petrol, gas oil and bread, as well as the price he gets for his wheat and cotton.

“Inflation has gone up but it's a global problem. We support the government,” he said.

Reliance on subsidies is growing, argued the UNDP's Farzin.

“Where you have chronic inflation, disproportionate rises in property prices relative to income, serious unemployment and underemployment, it's only natural that low-income households cannot keep up,” he said. “So they rely on subsidies.”

Iran has reduced absolute poverty over the years, but officials say 7 to 10 percent of the population of 70 million still live below the line set at a minimum daily intake of 2,100 calories.

However, Farzin said, wealth inequalities are widening.

“Iran's economy doesn't produce in such a way as to generate sufficient employment, distribute the income well and alleviate relative poverty,” Farzin said. “This is the core problem.”

Iran is grappling with economic challenges that are exacerbated by U.N. and unilateral U.S. sanctions that have raised the cost of doing business and deterred badly needed Western investment in its oil and gas industry.

But it would be rash to assume more economic pressure would force Iran's leaders to compromise in their row with the United States and its allies over the nuclear program, which the West suspects has a military purpose. Tehran denies this.

“They're in a crunch, but the reality is they have a very high tolerance for economic hardship,” a Western diplomat said.

Adeli, an ex-ambassador who thinks Iran should interact more with the world for economic reasons, called sanctions futile.

“Historically they haven't been able to serve their purpose, especially when it comes to Iranians, with their pride, their resilience, their resistance towards foreigners,” he said.[/quote]

Source: [url="http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=99893"]Turkish Daily News[/url]

[Adrestia]

[quote name='kujo' post='1546746' date='May 28 2008, 03:09 PM']Do you honestly believe that the president of Iran is going to blow himself up, killing the Pope? Or that he would make the strategic error of declaring war with the leader of 1 billion people? Come on...you are making a mountain out of a molehill, not to mention being a bit racist. Not every Muslim wants to martyr him/herself. And most modern leaders of countries don't get their hands dirty in actually fighting the war, instead allowing soldiers to do the killing. This is even worse with terror organizations and what not.[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel[/url]

Prose was not being racist, ignorant, or bigoted. Her statement was a reflection of her views of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - not Muslims. I'm not going to waste my time copying the various things that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said and done to earn his reputation. You can look them up yourself. (On a personal note, I do have several Iranian friends and they think the man is nuts.)

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1547027' date='May 28 2008, 05:59 PM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel[/url]

Prose was not being racist, ignorant, or bigoted. Her statement was a reflection of her views of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - not Muslims. I'm not going to waste my time copying the various things that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said and done to earn his reputation. You can look them up yourself. (On a personal note, I do have several Iranian friends and they think the man is nuts.)[/quote]

I am reading the book Children of Jihad, and the picture painted by the author is that such views are common enough. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/07/AR2008050703587.html"]Even some of the clerics have been becoming impatient and angry with Ahmadinejad's rhetoric[/url]. But that doesn't seem to be stopping him, because he believes and means exactly what he has been saying.

I think many people do not realize that Ahmadinejad is not just a Muslim. He is a "Twelver." They believe that their messiah, the so-called 12th Imam (aka The Mahdi), is waiting at the bottom of a well for the end times, a time that will be marked with blood and chaos. At that time the Mahdi will climb out of his well and settle all conflicts and bring the entire planet under the rule of the Islamic flag.

More than that, the "Twelvers" believe that they are charged with actually triggering The Mahdi's return by creating enough blood and chaos--thus they believe that they must trigger Armageddon. This is why the President of Iran seeking nuclear energy is such a threat that even the government of France has been warning Iran.

[kujo]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1547027' date='May 28 2008, 06:59 PM'][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel[/url]

Prose was not being racist, ignorant, or bigoted. Her statement was a reflection of her views of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - not Muslims. I'm not going to waste my time copying the various things that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said and done to earn his reputation. You can look them up yourself. (On a personal note, I do have several Iranian friends and they think the man is nuts.)[/quote]

I disagree, but whatever. I don't really care what her intentions were.

I'm well aware of the crazy things he has said. I think that this man is all talk and very little action. He fancies himself to be the leader of Muslims everywhere, though he can hardly keep his own country together.

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1547051' date='May 28 2008, 07:26 PM']I am reading the book Children of Jihad, and the picture painted by the author is that such views are common enough. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/07/AR2008050703587.html"]Even some of the clerics have been becoming impatient and angry with Ahmadinejad's rhetoric[/url]. But that doesn't seem to be stopping him, because he believes and means exactly what he has been saying.

I think many people do not realize that Ahmadinejad is not just a Muslim. He is a "Twelver." They believe that their messiah, the so-called 12th Imam (aka The Mahdi), is waiting at the bottom of a well for the end times, a time that will be marked with blood and chaos. At that time the Mahdi will climb out of his well and settle all conflicts and bring the entire planet under the rule of the Islamic flag.

More than that, the "Twelvers" believe that they are charged with actually triggering The Mahdi's return by creating enough blood and chaos--thus they believe that they must trigger Armageddon. This is why the President of Iran seeking nuclear energy is such a threat that even the government of France has been warning Iran.[/quote]

Again, I do not devalue the danger this man poses to the Middle East, and the world in general. His words are dangerous, as are his actions. By continuing to develop a nuclear weapons program, despite the fact that the world community is against it, Ahmadinejad is showing the world what he will do to get "the bomb." My view is that this is intolerable and must be stopped. Sanctions have done little to sway his opinion, so I think we're left with a difficult choice: continue the diplomatic route in hopes that he compromises, or start backing up or words with actions of our own. As you pointed out, this man's religious views shed light on the fact that he has some crazy tendencies; however, as I've stated before, I have to believe that he would not persist if he felt that doing so would result in an armed conflict with the US and the rest of the world. His people don't want it, nor do they want him. If we turned up the heat, so to speak, we could find that he caves in, overthrown, or is fired!

I am by no means saying that we should nuke Iran. I think that we should make it very clear that our guiding policy from here on out is that Iran [b]will not produce nuclear weapons[/b] and that we will take every appropriate measure to ensure this outcome. We are willing to play nice, but we will not be bullied and we will not be ignored.

[geauxsaints26]

It's amazing to me that so many people are supporters of ANOTHER preemptive attack/war of aggression. Why would any pope support a war of aggression if anything he would be against it. If Bush goes to war with Iran he is certifiably insane.

Edited May 28, 2008 by geauxsaints26

[kujo]

[quote name='geauxsaints26' post='1547070' date='May 28 2008, 07:40 PM']It's amazing to me that so many people are supporters of ANOTHER preemptive attack/war of aggression. Why would any pope support a war of aggression if anything he would be against it. If Bush goes to war with Iran he is certifiably insane.[/quote]

Why? This would not be a war, it would be airstrikes at specific targets with the goal being to neutralize their nuclear power. If you read what I've said previously, it would not involve any significant casualties or deaths because it would not be a secret. We would tell them "You have [i]x[/i] amount of days/weeks to show that you are taking measures to shut down these facilities, or else we're going to shut them down ourselves."

I don't see that this is anything but good policy. Iran signed and ratified the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Remember the last country to violate Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty that they signed and ratified? North Korea, part of the so-called "Axis of Evil." They not only built weapons, but have continued to use them in order to get concessions from China and other countries. It's a chess piece, a game that we cannot allow an avowed anti-Israel, anti-American country to possess.

Edited May 28, 2008 by kujo

[StColette]

[quote name='kujo' post='1546895' date='May 28 2008, 05:03 PM']#1 I didn't saying anyone did. I felt that his comment about this guy possibly harming the Pope was dumb and based on a pretty ignorant notion of Muslims.[/quote]

I don't believe prose, who is a she not a he , was not making an ignorant notion of Muslims. She was referring strickly to Iran's President. If you know anything of this man's political standings and his very extremists views, then you would also have cause for concern for the safety of the Holy Father. Prose was not making the comment about Iran's President because he's Muslim, but rather because he is a very dangerous man, Muslim or otherwise. I wouldn't call her a bigot nor ignorant either. She's definitely not a bigot or ignorant of this gentleman's background. She is not being intolerant towards Muslims, if that is what you are getting at. She just doesn't agree with this gentleman's opinions or record of how he acts or thinks about certain things. And for the record the Vatican also doesn't agree with how the President of Iran handles things either, I wouldn't call them a bigot nor ignorant.

[kujo]

[quote name='StColette' post='1547087' date='May 28 2008, 08:00 PM']I don't believe prose, who is a she not a he , was not making an ignorant notion of Muslims. She was referring strickly to Iran's President. If you know anything of this man's political standings and his very extremists views, then you would also have cause for concern for the safety of the Holy Father. Prose was not making the comment about Iran's President because he's Muslim, but rather because he is a very dangerous man, Muslim or otherwise. I wouldn't call her a bigot nor ignorant either. She's definitely not a bigot or ignorant of this gentleman's background. She is not being intolerant towards Muslims, if that is what you are getting at. She just doesn't agree with this gentleman's opinions or record of how he acts or thinks about certain things. And for the record the Vatican also doesn't agree with how the President of Iran handles things either, I wouldn't call them a bigot nor ignorant.[/quote]

St. Collete, I think we disagree. I find the notion that this guy would off himself and take the Pope with him to be just plain dumb. I'm sorry, but I do. I've dealt with this situation and apologized. I'm not quite sure why you're bring this up other than that you didn't read the whole thread. Again, I have apologized.