For Prots - What Does Eat Flesh And Drink Blood Mean

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1550013' date='May 30 2008, 08:55 PM']Are you on either side on whether God made an axe float, made a man walk on water (Peter), made a virgin concieve, parted the sea, fed thousands with a few loaves and fish with 12 baskets left over, changed water in to wine, raised men from STONES? Are you on either side over whether God has power over the elements?

If you are not on either side of these matters then why is this one where he is so definite, emphatic, literal (my flesh is true food....", etc. etc. is a bit too much to stomach and even those in Jn 6:66 turned and walked away. I can understand this passage in light of the literal. Not if he is just saying "hey guys it was only a symbol, just kidding about the literal thing".

Are you on either side on whether men can make something that is not orange juice taste like orange juice and orange juice taste like something else (if we wanted to we could). Can he make stones in to men as he said he could or was it just a metaphore? If you can't believe what God says and that what he can do is far greater than what men can do, then your problem is bigger than John 6 and puts the whole Bible and all the stories in question.


By the way I posted this on a protestant board so hopefully I will get what I am looking for there.

Blessings[/quote]
Good post.

I'd like to put something in simplistic terms, if I will. If Jesus, who is God says "eat my flesh", why can't it be? Seriously... it's not like any human saying so... God has done much, so why couldn't he give us his flesh as The Paschal Lamb?

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1550160' date='May 30 2008, 11:36 PM']BG, dude, as if it needs said, you rock so hard.

Desertwoman, I have to echo Deb: If you indeed believe that Jesus is really, truly Present in the Eucharist, don't you long for it? How can you rationalize worshiping with people who see it as a mere symbol?

I'm not trying to shake your faith in any way; I'm not one of those people. Just merely curious...I don't think I'd be able to stand it.

Peace.[/quote]

Yes, BG rock'd hard. I'm really glad that he's done all that backchecking. Very inspiring.

Btw, I'm curious, too Desertwoman. It's not common for Baptists to believe in "the real presence".

[thessalonian]

BG, EXCELLENT! and notice the lamb had to be eaten in Ex 12 before the dawn of the new day. This to me strongly implies the dawn of the new day of his second coming when God and man will be intimately united and things will be made new. Funny I had an aethist do a better job last week of explaining the existence of God from design better than I and now you wrote a peice on the eucharist that was very excellent and though I know those arguements, don't know that I could match your articulation. Thank you for it.

[thessalonian]

Having a truly delightful conversation on this over at

[url="http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3241622&posted=1#post3241622"]http://www.christianguitar.org/forums/show...d=1#post3241622[/url]
It is just starting to head in the right direction.

[BG45]

Thanks Missy and SMM.

Thessalonian, to be honest I did take some of the scripture from Scott Hahn's book The Lamb's Supper, but decided to stay out of his covenant theology points in favor of some old notes tucked in my Bible. To be fair, they weren't unique...I never throw anything out, and have notes and church bulletins stretching back probably 8 or more years. Gotta be honest, I didn't give thought to the lamb being eaten by sun up, but the comparison between that and the Second Coming do seem quite sensible.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='BG45' post='1551375' date='Jun 1 2008, 02:47 AM']Thanks Missy and SMM.

Thessalonian, to be honest I did take some of the scripture from Scott Hahn's book The Lamb's Supper, but decided to stay out of his covenant theology points in favor of some old notes tucked in my Bible. To be fair, they weren't unique...I never throw anything out, and have notes and church bulletins stretching back probably 8 or more years. Gotta be honest, I didn't give thought to the lamb being eaten by sun up, but the comparison between that and the Second Coming do seem quite sensible.[/quote]
It's only been in the past couple of years that I've gotten rid of all the old church bulletins & notes that were in my Bible.

[BG45]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1551945' date='Jun 1 2008, 04:40 AM'] It's only been in the past couple of years that I've gotten rid of all the old church bulletins & notes that were in my Bible. [/quote]

Glad I'm not alone then.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='BG45' post='1552510' date='Jun 1 2008, 02:18 PM']Glad I'm not alone then. [/quote]

I'm starting to realize you have packrat issues, dear...

[desertwoman]

I believe in the real presence because it is mentioned in the Bible and many Christians before hand were murdered because of this "cannibalism" that was practiced and abhorred by the Romans.

I'm was reading the many counts against Christians before they were murdered and cannibalism was one of the main counts against them. This proved to me that the belief of the bread and wine being the actual flesh and blood of Christ was always practiced and not a phenomenon that the Catholic Church brought about.

But one of the main things that keeps me away from the Eucharist is that I want to fully accept everything that the Church teaches. I don't want to accept the Eucharist and have damnation fall upon my head.

Also, since the Orthodox Church has a valid communion, why can't I just be Orthodox and partake there since the Eucharist is the focus of the faith in both?

[dustthouart]

Hmm, I must go against my fellow converts. The Real Presence made sense to me immediately, provided that the Church was who she claimed to be. Now this is once I examine the issue.

Through my mainstream Protestant childhood, pagan early teens, and Evangelical late teens, I didn't really think about it much. I had heard the idea described as silly so I assumed it was silly. I didn't examine it.

So for me it was, "If you're really the Church Christ founded, then of course Jesus could do this. He's JESUS! And it makes sense with the Bible. But are you really THE Church? Do you have the authority?" It was the question of the identity of the Church that was crucial to me and took the most difficulty to accept.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1552626' date='Jun 1 2008, 03:24 PM']I believe in the real presence because it is mentioned in the Bible and many Christians before hand were murdered because of this "cannibalism" that was practiced and abhorred by the Romans.

I'm was reading the many counts against Christians before they were murdered and cannibalism was one of the main counts against them. This proved to me that the belief of the bread and wine being the actual flesh and blood of Christ was always practiced and not a phenomenon that the Catholic Church brought about.

But one of the main things that keeps me away from the Eucharist is that I want to fully accept everything that the Church teaches. I don't want to accept the Eucharist and have damnation fall upon my head.

Also, since the Orthodox Church has a valid communion, why can't I just be Orthodox and partake there since the Eucharist is the focus of the faith in both?[/quote]


You are correct in trying to reconcile all that the CC holds. The Eucharist is not just about believing in RP or TS. It's about the whole Catholic faith. Many have tried to think they should go orthodox. Some have. But I believe you will find that it does not fill you up in the end.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1552626' date='Jun 1 2008, 04:24 PM']But one of the main things that keeps me away from the Eucharist is that I want to fully accept everything that the Church teaches. I don't want to accept the Eucharist and have damnation fall upon my head.[/quote]

I've been in that place before. Have you been or plan to be in RCIA? I think when you see, as I did, that all of Catholic doctrine forms one complete whole from which nothing can be taken away or added without causing it all to fall apart and become meaningless, you'll realize that if you believe the Eucharist is Christ, you must believe everything the Church teaches.

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1552626' date='Jun 1 2008, 04:24 PM']Also, since the Orthodox Church has a valid communion, why can't I just be Orthodox and partake there since the Eucharist is the focus of the faith in both?[/quote]

Of course, you'd have the same issue there, in that you'd have to accept everything the Eastern Orthodox believe. They do have a wonderful faith with beautiful rites and liturgies, but going there simply to receive valid sacraments is the wrong reason.

[Deb]

Great commentary BG!!!

Scott Hahn's book, The Lamb's Supper was the first book I read after my conversion really kicked off and I was so blown away at how clearly it explains everything about the Eucharist. I will reread it after I get through the other 80 books I am working on.

Dr. Hahn is going to be speaking at a conference in Minneapolis in September, I think along with some other people. Too spendy for too little for me, but, I would love to hear him.

[BG45]

Thanks Deb. I don't think I'd go there either just to stalk Dr. Hahn Steuby would be closer to do that for me. I know what you mean on the books though, I'm reading three of Hahn's, two fiction works in the Warhammer40k universe, and Homeward Bound (scifi novel) by Turtledove.

[kujo]

[quote name='BG45' post='1554951' date='Jun 2 2008, 08:12 PM']Thanks Deb. I don't think I'd go there either just to stalk Dr. Hahn Steuby would be closer to do that for me. I know what you mean on the books though, I'm reading three of Hahn's, two fiction works in the Warhammer40k universe, and Homeward Bound (scifi novel) by Turtledove.[/quote]

Scott Hahn has a new book out called [i]Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God[/i] where he debunks what he refers to as "the new atheism." Should be an interesting read.

[Deb]

That sounds great. May have to pick that up. I am trying to stay out of the Catholic book stores cuz I have no self control. I just keep buying, like a kid in a candy store.