For Prots - What Does Eat Flesh And Drink Blood Mean

[BG45]

Madame V, did I just agree with you in my head? How strange...but I did. It's a good feeling, maybe it'll happen more often.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1542066' date='May 25 2008, 06:54 PM']I know a non-denominational church that believes that their communion is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ. They don't have any type of consecration rite, I believe. But I've asked one of the members their before and they told me flat out that they believe it is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Apparently they have a type of penitential rite before they have "communion". So when asking them what Christ meant, they understand it similarly to us.

Jennie not Micah.[/quote]
I know some Bapticostals or whatever who believe in transubstantiation... they have an interesting alliance with our diocese cause they help w/ music at our summer youth event, but anywho they claim to transustantiate pop and chips . Not even joking. They can't afford wafers and wine/grapejuice/whatever. At least, this is what I've heard.

[quote name='BG45' post='1542094' date='May 25 2008, 07:30 PM']*raises hand* The Protestant agrees.

When you are raised that it is a symbol, and nothing more and entire sections and chapters are glossed over in sermons and Bible Study; you don't think about it really. You just know that all you've been taught is that "They are wrong" and don't tend to question it.

Personally for me, it was the Scripture on not removing Scripture that got me questioning nearly half my life ago. After all, there were those other books taken it out at some point, and wasn't that altering the Scriptures? Like Alycin says, the Eucharist is probably the hardest thing to accept, the rest is almost "easy" in comparison. I know that the first time I went to Eucharistic Adoration it was because the Catholic Church was making too much sense and had too much historical proof and that I needed to go to the heart of it all, to go before the Eucharist and be able to sit there and feel absolutely nothing...and then ending up in tears put a kink in the plan.[/quote]


[quote name='BG45' post='1542175' date='May 25 2008, 08:06 PM']Well it used to be fear of familial reaction; but lately dad has been joking he expects me to "Go Catholic as obsessed as you are with the Pope". Mom defending my going to pray and sit in quiet to read the Bible at Blessed Margaret of Castello, a PA chapel to my aunt who was afraid it would "make me go Catholic".

It still is to an extent a fear about my grandmother's reaction, she's old enough to remember sitting on her mother's lap and listening to the stories of the family's Catholic/Protestant Split in the 1800s. Though whenever I do 'break it' to my mother at least I need to order a DVD from EWTN on when my question was featured on the Journey Home.

The main thing now is lack of a stable work schedule/location that would allow me to attend RCIA.[/quote]
Dude, you've already got a witness talk all set out. All you gotta do is be Catholic, or the next best thing, prepare to be Catholic, and give your testimony somewheres

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1542369' date='May 25 2008, 10:14 PM']Aly, I NEVER KNEW you weren't Catholic. Needless to say it was quite a surprise to me. You've impressed me more than once in many of the debate threads. So good luck with RCIA, and God be with you on the rest of your journey!!

And very nice to know that Phil has another person so much like him on PM. Though I don't take Kujo calling you guys cute the wrong way--and he knows it.

Anyhow, I think you're fierce. [/quote]
She IS fierce.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1542373' date='May 25 2008, 10:16 PM']Think of it this way: You are meant to be Catholic. It is your heritage. It's the heritage of your ancestors. You were robbed and God wants to give back to you what was stolen from you.[/quote]


Werrrrd!

[BG45]

SMM dude, you should see my one before Catholicism, it's several pages long.

[MissyP89]

That was a good testimony to read. And I say that in an unbiased way, too.

I need to write a new one. I'm not non-denominational Protestant anymore.

[kujo]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1542649' date='May 26 2008, 12:48 AM']That was a good testimony to read. And I say that in an unbiased way, too.

I need to write a new one. I'm not non-denominational Protestant anymore. [/quote]

[hoosieranna]

If anyone is interested in my response, here goes. I was raised to believe the act of taking Communion was symbolic in nature. Those who "know" me can attest to my continued dissatisfaction with the churches I grew up in, though they also know not to push the conversion issue just yet. Transubstantiation is a tough concept to get one's head around. I get the arguments. Now I just have to wrestle my mind into submission.

[Deus te Amat]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1542698' date='May 26 2008, 12:01 AM']If anyone is interested in my response, here goes. I was raised to believe the act of taking Communion was symbolic in nature. Those who "know" me can attest to my continued dissatisfaction with the churches I grew up in, though they also know not to push the conversion issue just yet. Transubstantiation is a tough concept to get one's head around. I get the arguments. Now I just have to wrestle my mind into submission.[/quote]

[kujo]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1542698' date='May 26 2008, 01:01 AM']If anyone is interested in my response, here goes. I was raised to believe the act of taking Communion was symbolic in nature. Those who "know" me can attest to my continued dissatisfaction with the churches I grew up in, though they also know not to push the conversion issue just yet. Transubstantiation is a tough concept to get one's head around. I get the arguments. Now I just have to wrestle my mind into submission.[/quote]

We all have this problem. Our minds all think like Jacob. May God wrestle our prideful minds into submission to His will.

[Jesus_lol]

does it really matter whether people take it literally or not? if they take it symbolically, isn't that a lot like a baptism of desire? technically, there is no holy water on your head, but since you want there to be, it counts as the same. (my loose understanding of desire baptism). thus even though it is not being taken literally, it is being taken just as seriously, and to the same effect.


on another note, regarding how protestants take different parts of the bible literally and otherwise, does catholicism take EVERYTHING in the bible seriously, literally and obey it? cause i seem to remember some weird arcane stuff in there that no one really takes seriously. now what makes the catholic choice of stuff to follow so much more reasonable than any others?

and to my vague protestantism, i dont subscribe to any particular mindset, (partially because i dont know enough about any one, to choose it) but my cobbled together religion does contain a lot of teachings and practices in catholicism (that i have heard of or picked up in my time here), but i still wholly disagree with enough parts of the religion as a whole, that i couldn't "force" myself to forget or change those parts and convert to catholicism. and to madame V, its not because being a protestant is easier either. that seemed pretty insulting to say that an entire religions only reason for existence is by straight convenience. neither would i agree that it is all based on being anti catholic, though it may have started that way. it seems the height of arrogance to reduce all of the protestant faiths and believers be in a petty rebellion against your own.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Jesus_lol

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1542577' date='May 26 2008, 04:27 AM']I know some Bapticostals or whatever who believe in transubstantiation... they have an interesting alliance with our diocese cause they help w/ music at our summer youth event, but anywho they claim to transustantiate pop and chips . Not even joking. They can't afford wafers and wine/grapejuice/whatever. At least, this is what I've heard.[/quote]
If they're like my parents' minister, it may just be that they believe you should remember Christ's sacrifice regardless of what you eat.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1542856' date='May 26 2008, 06:14 AM']on another note, regarding how protestants take different parts of the bible literally and otherwise, does catholicism take EVERYTHING in the bible seriously, literally and obey it? cause i seem to remember some weird arcane stuff in there that no one really takes seriously. now what makes the catholic choice of stuff to follow so much more reasonable than any others?[/quote]
The contradiction comes from those denominations that say the entire Bible must be taken literally, and then change it just at some points. Catholics generally don't feel that all of the Bible must be taken literally.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1542399' date='May 25 2008, 09:30 PM']Woot! Yeah she is amazing! I love her.
And dude, madame V, I agree with you about this thread and not having any disagreements! How rare!

[/quote]

Ditto. It is refreshing for us not to be polarizing on issues. There is nothing more central to our fatih than the Eucharist. If we were arguing over the Blessed Sacrament as the Source & Summit...the Fatih would be in serious trouble. I sorta wish the church would give us less wiggle-room (even if it meant I was wrong... ) on other things so we would agree as much on them!

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1542906' date='May 26 2008, 03:25 AM']If they're like my parents' minister, it may just be that they believe you should remember Christ's sacrifice regardless of what you eat.[/quote]

Strange, but I think their belief IS more along the Catholic lines. One of the people from the church, who was leading this music at the youth event actually knelt before the Host in the monstrance when we did adoration.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1542856' date='May 26 2008, 12:14 AM']does it really matter whether people take it literally or not? if they take it symbolically, isn't that a lot like a baptism of desire?
...
now what makes the catholic choice of stuff to follow so much more reasonable than any others?
...
neither would i agree that it is all based on being anti catholic, though it may have started that way.[/quote]


To the first question: Yes it does really matter. Catholicism by its nature assumes an importance on a universal understanding of Catholic dogma and submission to doctrine. That is why Catholics today are still bound by the dogmatic formulations of Nicea 1700 years ago. In my own point of view, it has always seemed that if you don't 'take the Eucharist literally'...you do Christ (and his Body, the Church) a disservice by genuflecting and reverencing It and lying by saying 'Amen' when the Communicant states that It is the Body of Christ. It seems sort of pharisaic to be more concerned with the appearance and symbolism when you are outwardly demonstrating a belief in the substance of the Eucharist. The Mass practically revolves around the worship and participation in the Body & Blood of Christ. It is not at all like a Baptism of desire because baptisms of desire express a profound belief in the SUBSTANCE of baptism and its efficacy. Symbols don't save us. Symbols don't unite us mystically to the Body of Christ. The Eucharist is not a symbol and to treat It as such is by the very nature of the act to reduce the sanctity of the Mass, in my opinion. The reason the Church calls converts to refrain from Eucharist (until formal induction into the Church) is because their waiting and longing to participate is itself and Spiritual Communion of Desire. Consumption isn't what makes its a spiritual Communion of Desire; its the desire. Consumption would make it an actual participation in the substance of the Eucharist (licitly or not). Just like if someone physically puts the holy water on your head and follows the Trinitarian formula you ARE baptized. What makes it a baptism of desire is the LACK of formalization despite an inner spiritual desire. I am sorry, but all of the preceding redundancy is hopefully showing that your 'Baptism of Desire' comparison isnt' valid. Hope that helps!

To the second question: What makes the Catholic Church's decisions more valid than others is the reailty of an Apostolic Succession and a consistency in teaching throughout the ages. Like I said in the preceding paragraph...we aren't really free to re-formulate the dogmatic decrees of Nicea on the nature of God. Protestantism isn't bound by any such claims to consistence or history. Each new denomination can claim a new history which isn't bout by the failures of its predecessor. That is the whole basis of why Protestantism began...it didnt' want to be bound by what it considered 'failures' in Catholcism...yet it felt it could be legitimate despite its lack of historical roots.

To your last statement: Why would anyone who could admit that their faith has 'rotten roots' ever persist in it? I can admit that the Catholic Church has made plenty of social, political, and blunders in theological implementation (The Crusades, the favoring of despicable Catholic despots over their Protestant enemies, some of the over-liberalizations after Vatican II come painfully to mind with regard to implementation...). However, its roots are physically and continually in the transmission of authority from the apostles to the earliest Church communities to their mono-episcopal leaders who would become the first bishops and on down through to today. Despite its flaws, it has a beautiful and undeniable consistency in teaching that is sadly lacking in the Protestant Tradition (which is a comical phrasing, but true). Simply look into the historical perspectives of different protestant faiths on an issue like birth control to observe the consistency in the Catholic teaching versus Protestant teaching.

I hope I didnt' come across as too antagonistic; I'm not really trying to single you out. I am just trying to clarify your questions and statements form a Catholic perspective.

Christ's Peace,

Todd W.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Veridicus

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1543277' date='May 26 2008, 10:17 AM']Strange, but I think their belief IS more along the Catholic lines. One of the people from the church, who was leading this music at the youth event actually knelt before the Host in the monstrance when we did adoration.[/quote]

Sounds like relativistic, wish-washy, we'll get some truth from anywhere we can because we're desperate kind of approach. Not that I think turning to the Eucharist is desperate...but thinking pop & chips are the Eucharist becaus its convenient is desperate.

Peace.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1543277' date='May 26 2008, 04:17 PM']Strange, but I think their belief IS more along the Catholic lines. One of the people from the church, who was leading this music at the youth event actually knelt before the Host in the monstrance when we did adoration.[/quote]
Interesting.