XIX Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 http://www.freechristians.com/The_salvation_of_all_men.htm I don't have much of an idea what to think about this one. The one thing that doesn't make sense is that Satan and his "evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls" don't seem like they will get into heaven. So, that would screw up the notion of all souls being saved. Then again, humans are God's most precious creatures... Yup, I'm clueless. Almost. Thoughts from the peanut gallery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeodatus Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 The website is talking about the "apokatastasis", the belief that at the end of the world all things would be restored to God, i.e. hell would cease to exist and everyone (absolutely everyone) will be happy with God in heaven. They claim that this was a prevalent view in the first five centuries of the Church. Well, in actual fact, only 2 early Christians seemed to have held this idea. Origen is notorious for having done so, and even before the fifth century this was held against him and he was seen as a heretic. St Gregory of Nyssa also held some form of this belief, but his brother St Basil and his friend St Gregory of Nazianzus both rejected this idea, and Gregory of Nyssa may have later changed his mind. The "apokatastasis" trivialises free will. It's like all of life becomes a joke, and nothing really matters, because at the end of the day, no matter what you've done and with what cruelty or abuse or hatred, all will be well. All your choices you have on earth are of no account. Catholic Christianity thinks that God takes free will seriously. He gave it as a gift to angels and humans, and does not think it is a joke. The angels have all made their choice, and because of their clear and perfect knowledge, their choice is fixed. So the devil and all the fallen angels will never repent. Hell---life without God---is already a reality for them, and and utterly awful reality. For human beings our choice is not complete until death. So we don't know who has chosen hell with any degree of certainty. For that reason, we can still hope (as far as humans are concerned, not angels) that it is possible "that all might be saved". We can hope this with a God-given hope, and pray for sinners (including ourselves, of course). But this hope cannot tell us with certainty that no human will go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Moving this to the Debate Table because it's not a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 Yep, it's our hope that no one is in hell, but we can't know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted February 26, 2004 Share Posted February 26, 2004 flashbacks of von Balthasar happening here.... Anyway, I have yet to read a theory of universal salvation that coincides with revelation or reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 WOW...my Catholic common sense has really come a long way in less than 4 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
photosynthesis Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 [quote name='XIX' post='1403902' date='Oct 16 2007, 11:10 PM']WOW...my Catholic common sense has really come a long way in less than 4 years...[/quote] that's the Holy Spirit working in your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 I'll say...can't take credit for that as it is all God's doing, but MAN...never would have asked that question today. I remember that time, too. That was when i was obsessed with the question of "what % of souls go to heaven and hell?" Now I just figure it's a stupid question to beat myself up over...I don't mind a little bit of speculation, but really, we don't know. It's better to focus on what you can control, i.e. allowing the Lord to sanctify your soul, and allowing the Lord to help others through you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Apocatastasis: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm[/url] Also, the following shows up in the Syllabus of Errors under the discussion of Indifferentialism and Latitudinarianism:[quote]17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.—Encyclical "[i]Quanto conficiamur[/i]," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.[/quote]This is a statement of the error which is contrary to Catholic teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 Thanks for the clarifications and such. Besides, universalism just seems so...unrealistic...and the Bible says that people go to Hell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodChaser Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 [quote name='XIX' post='127340' date='Feb 26 2004, 01:06 AM'][url="http://www.freechristians.com/The_salvation_of_all_men.htm"]http://www.freechristians.com/The_salvation_of_all_men.htm[/url] I don't have much of an idea what to think about this one. The one thing that doesn't make sense is that Satan and his "evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls" don't seem like they will get into heaven. So, that would screw up the notion of all souls being saved. Then again, humans are God's most precious creatures... Yup, I'm clueless. Almost. Thoughts from the peanut gallery?[/quote] Just read the bible. All unbelievers will go to the burning lake of fire. That is all i have to say to that. This person is kinda crazy, and himself is filled with evil spirits talking to his mind, giving him a warped understanding of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1404053' date='Oct 16 2007, 10:41 PM']Also, the following shows up in the Syllabus of Errors under the discussion of Indifferentialism and Latitudinarianism:This is a statement of the error which is contrary to Catholic teaching.[/quote] Beat me to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1404105' date='Oct 17 2007, 02:03 AM']Beat me to it [/quote]I'm cool like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 For those who haven't noticed, I will point out that I started this thread 3.5 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Doh! Apparently I wasn't paying attention... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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