Laudem Gloriae Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 I don't see the questions asked by that man as accusatory or inflammatory. People who read about these supposed orders from the Cloisters have the right to know what is going on with them and question some of the strange things about them. I am NOT the only one on this forum and others that have the very same and more questions and thoughts on these things. Also, it seems YOU gave the Our Lady, "the Lady of Cloisters" so to tell that poster to go and have to her to pretty much get her head straight is another odd thing! Now if you said "Our Lady of Fatima" or of Lourdes or just Our Lady that is fine. When you post your numerous orders with all kinds of charisms,other weird things and such on various forums on the web, you must be ready to answer questions and not jump on the "he's accusing me and annoying me" boat. As for the Saint and Blessed you mentioned who founded orders - they were just that! A Saint and Blessed who were perfectly able to found AND do the formation of their aspirants. I have a friend who has been trying to found a traditional, full habited Carmel that, like Rosalind Moss's order, will be open from ages 18 to 118 and she is having a hard time due to many bishops telling her she must have a nun who has been a Carmelite novice mistress or prioress to form them or have these women be excepted into an established Carmel for several years for formation. She herself was in a Carmel for 3-4 years but had to leave due to health reasons and she is more formed in religious life than yourself, I'd say to form others in the religious life. Just because a lay person has a great prayer life, etc., doesn't make them qualified to form others in the religious life when you yourself have never lived it. Sure you may get someone who has I guess but all these are questions a discerner who is serious about their vocation and wanting to persevere better think about. It's tough enough already to enter an establish order and persevere where there are plenty of nuns/sisters formed for decades! I suppose I will be labeled "annoying, accusatory or attacking", but I am not the only one on this forum and others thinking this and more. It is important that people discerning and longing to enter an order want to join yours and if they never go anywhere or get up and running, this person or persons will have wasted their precious time they could have spent on well established orders and already have entered and started their religious life. Rosalind Moss's order will be up and running soon. Maybe God WILL have one or more of your's running - who knows? But as we don't know, people should be allowed to ask questions and in humility, love, understanding and charity you should not get so easily offended and accuse someone of being "accusatory" when you have no idea of their state of mind while writing these questions. The problem with emails and forum writing is that you CANNOT see the person's face, sound and tone of their voice, their facial expressions, gestures, their eyes, etc. so the written word can come across with the wrong tone to the reader. You have no idea whether that man with the questions was being accusatory or just curious and you just read into it the wrong tone. I know I don't have before me what he wrote to you on your board, so my post now is only what he posted on Phatmass. In an earlier thread, someone asked slightly tough questions and it just went away. It was like "don't upset or be mean to Gemma" and all that did was not get any answers to help people understand because if it did, perhaps this man might not have written pretty much the same questions yet again. You are probably a nice woman, but this whole thing is about people's vocations, their lives they want to give to God and for any new orders that want to pop up, these people and others like myself who are curious and who are personally asked if these orders are for real or just figments would like to know questions and a for a supposed "foundress" to get so easily annoyed and not respond out of love and charity is not a "foundress" or order I would be interested in or would recommend. I did have a young person ask me about these "orders" and I told her to discern else where and just watch and see - watch how these questions are answered and wait to see what happens but discern elsewhere. If these orders are to be, God will do it but many have doubts that I can see, have read about and been written to. We are talking about young and not so young hearts on fire with the love of God and personal feelings shouldn't come into play when being questioned and when souls are looking for God and may end up wasting precious time on some order that may never be come to anything. Life is to short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 10, 2008 Author Share Posted June 10, 2008 Again, I'm the only one on these boards who ever gets blasted the way I do. Face it, I'm human and I'm an Aspie. Sometimes I have a tendency to take things the wrong way. The question about the headdress was, to my logical Aspie mind, rather ridiculous. Jesus is the reason why the aspirants are there in the first place. To suggest otherwise is. . .well, I've already said it--ridiculous. Our Lady of the Cloister is a legit title. It's on the Marian calendar, and is celebrated on October 10 in France--at least according to that calendar it is. And yes, telling someone to go get quiet and ask Our Lady herself is a legit discernment tool. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWIE Posted June 10, 2008 Share Posted June 10, 2008 Kudos to Nunsense and Laudem Gloriae for the wonderfully written and helpful [b]constructive[/b][u][/u] criticism, and for pointing out a few very important aspects of the Cloisterite foundation which up to now have been overlooked. Thank you for taking the time to clarify for the younger seekers and discerners on this forum, the very tenuous situation they could possibly be facing by NOT asking the right questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 gemma, if you find posting the same questions very annoying, i am very sorry. I didn't mean to be a stalker, or to accuse you , to scare you, etc. I just thought you wouldn't see my question in bravenet. your foundations are intresting but i would just like to clarify some things. i keep on visiting your site to see the progress and now i had the chance to ask you, seeing that some persons are also asking some questions here in phatmass. and I am so surprised to see your answer. you accused me and scared me to death. it is just hurting to know someone accusing me. i didn't gave you criticisms or what, but i just asked. What's wrong in asking? If you find my tone there annoying and very offensive, im so sorry but i didn't mean it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 i just want to add that you will see the same words, the same letters, the same spaces on gemma's blog and on this forum.my gosh, i respected you, but i feel that i don't get respect from you. it is so sad. you are telling me to keep silent. it is just hurting. when you are discerning a vocation, you don't just discern with yourself. you ask guidance from a spiritual director. that is very contrary to you statement - telling me just to keep silent. i am very sorry if i am hurting you again but i am very much hurt with your words. gosh.. Thanks for your clear answer. It answered all my questions. No need to ask some questions again because now I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 [quote name='tnavarro61' post='1567925' date='Jun 11 2008, 08:12 AM']i just want to add that you will see the same words, the same letters, the same spaces on gemma's blog and on this forum.my gosh, i respected you, but i feel that i don't get respect from you. it is so sad. you are telling me to keep silent. it is just hurting. when you are discerning a vocation, you don't just discern with yourself. you ask guidance from a spiritual director. that is very contrary to you statement - telling me just to keep silent. i am very sorry if i am hurting you again but i am very much hurt with your words. gosh.. Thanks for your clear answer. It answered all my questions. No need to ask some questions again because now I know.[/quote] Yes, this is unfortunate. We are in the same boat. We scared each other. We are human, and I have a communications and social skills disorder. How I wish I had a spokesperson. I simply asked you to do some interior discernment, I was not telling you to be quiet. I would have been interested in seeing what you received during that silent prayer. I am not a spiritual director. That is the responsibility of a priest or someone else there locally with you. I get email notifications of blog comments. However, I must point out that the word "disturbing" was on the Phatmass post only, and not on the blog. In English, "disturbing" means "deeply troubling." Ask anyone who actually knows me--I am no monster. Quite the opposite. I now request that any further communication take place through email: foundress2003@yahoo.com Be at peace, and may we allow the Holy Ghost to act as reconciler. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 [quote]Greetings, Gemma! I've been visiting your site (your cloisterite) and I am so happy to have that future order. I just have some questions, which I hope are not offensive. I just want some clarification: 1. I was just surprised to see that you are going to found lots of religious orders. I've never heard of that except from you. Don't you think it would be better to combine these proposed religious orders into one? Don't you think it's too early to plan future orders. 2. You seem to concentrate most on religious habit. I find this sentence from your site [b]disturbing[/b]: Headdress--cloisters are literally on the sisters' minds . What do you mean here? Do you think it's better if your nuns will only have Jesus in their minds? I have some more questions but I am going to read first more on your site to avoid disturbing you as I may ask you questions that are already answered. God bless.[/quote] this is what i posted on your blog. now compare with the phatmass post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 [quote name='tnavarro61' post='1567933' date='Jun 11 2008, 08:53 AM']this is what i posted on your blog. now compare with the phatmass post.[/quote] I stand corrected. Please pray the eyeglass lab makes haste with my new glasses. Then, perhaps, I won't make such mistakes. Now--tell me--why does the headdress issue disturb you? (This question should lead you to further interior discernment). I received this method of discernment from a hermitess who is also a founder. I kept asking her questions, and she told me to see what the Holy Ghost was leading me to do--as he works on attraction. Peace, reconciliation, and blessings in the Holy Ghost, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 [quote name='Gemma' post='1567935' date='Jun 11 2008, 09:00 PM']I stand corrected. Please pray the eyeglass lab makes haste with my new glasses. Then, perhaps, I won't make such mistakes. Now--tell me--why does the headdress issue disturb you? (This question should lead you to further interior discernment). I received this method of discernment from a hermitess who is also a founder. I kept asking her questions, and she told me to see what the Holy Ghost was leading me to do--as he works on attraction. Peace, reconciliation, and blessings in the Holy Ghost, Gemma[/quote] Because it [b]seems[/b] to focus on the instrument, not on the service. I got the idea from PCPA nuns: [quote]Underneath the white veil, the nun wears a white head covering. This is a symbol that her mind is not on "the world" but on the Kingdom that is to come. No part of her mind, intellect, memory, or will is to be part of the world, part of darkness, or part of anything that is contrary to Jesus Christ.[/quote] [url="http://olamshrine.com/nuns_progression.html"]http://olamshrine.com/nuns_progression.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 [quote name='tnavarro61' post='1567936' date='Jun 11 2008, 09:07 AM']Because it [b]seems[/b] to focus on the instrument, not on the service. I got the idea from PCPA nuns: [url="http://olamshrine.com/nuns_progression.html"]http://olamshrine.com/nuns_progression.html[/url][/quote] One aspect of the Cloisterite charism that distinguishes it from others is the fact that they don't pray for their own vocations--they pray exclusively for other cloisters' vocations, and those of emerging charisms. Religious habits are full of symbolism for the charism. The headdress is symbolic of the cloister wall. When one nun sees the other nuns' headdress, it should remind her of the charism that she has been assigned to pray for for a year. When she puts it on in the morning, again, it's a reminder. Taking it off at night, a prayer for protection for that assigned charism. Of course, the Cloisterite prays for personal perseverance in their own personal vocation, but there are no prayers in the Sancta Regula which are specifically for Cloisterite vocations. They are not only making reparation until their last sigh, but everything they do is for others' vocations. This is similar to what the Society of Helpers of the Holy Souls did--offering everything for the Poor Souls in Purgatory, to include the post-death suffrage prayers offered for them. (I am not sure if their post-Conciliar congregation still does that). I pray this answers your question. Peace, reconciliation, and blessings in the Holy Ghost, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perpetualove Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Where are the moderators? This entire thread is entirely disturbing, and I have addressed it before within the confines of this phorum. Gemma, I have no doubt you are sincere in your desires to be a foundress of many Orders. However, you speak with an authority that is very misleading. As has been pointed out here before, many times - over and over again -this is a place where people (apparently younger people) come for advice, support and encouragement. Links to orders that are not in line with Rome are immediately deleted and yet, this entire thread - about [b]IMAGINARY[/b] Orders has been allowed to continue. I have no doubt that at some point, your dreams will become a reality, but until that happens, I think it would be more appropriate to help direct people to established communities. Holy Mother Church, whether any of us like it or not, has allowed (for a variety of reasons and purposes) Women Religious to dress in myriad forms. None of us are in any position to direct someone regarding their spirituality or interior prayer life based upon their desire for a habit, headress, veil or whatnot. That is private - between God, the woman and the community. There is no harm done, surely, in expressing our likes and desires, but anything other than that borders on spiritual direction and the last time I checked, that is inappropriate in this context. Your website has a link to your email address; inquirers should be directed to you personally - to keep up with this role playing is confusing and misleading. In the meantime, as you plan to found communities and have used this phorum (repeatedly) to attempt to garner interest, there is no reason to object to honest questions, critical thinking and clarifications. Perpetualove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 [quote name='Perpetualove' post='1568652' date='Jun 11 2008, 07:34 PM']Where are the moderators? This entire thread is entirely disturbing, and I have addressed it before within the confines of this phorum. Gemma, I have no doubt you are sincere in your desires to be a foundress of many Orders. However, you speak with an authority that is very misleading. As has been pointed out here before, many times - over and over again -this is a place where people (apparently younger people) come for advice, support and encouragement. Links to orders that are not in line with Rome are immediately deleted and yet, this entire thread - about [b]IMAGINARY[/b] Orders has been allowed to continue. I have no doubt that at some point, your dreams will become a reality, but until that happens, I think it would be more appropriate to help direct people to established communities. Holy Mother Church, whether any of us like it or not, has allowed (for a variety of reasons and purposes) Women Religious to dress in myriad forms. None of us are in any position to direct someone regarding their spirituality or interior prayer life based upon their desire for a habit, headress, veil or whatnot. That is private - between God, the woman and the community. There is no harm done, surely, in expressing our likes and desires, but anything other than that borders on spiritual direction and the last time I checked, that is inappropriate in this context. Your website has a link to your email address; inquirers should be directed to you personally - to keep up with this role playing is confusing and misleading. In the meantime, as you plan to found communities and have used this phorum (repeatedly) to attempt to garner interest, there is no reason to object to honest questions, critical thinking and clarifications. Perpetualove[/quote] I took up your issues--since they've been voiced before--with a hermitess/founder/canon lawyer, and she said, "When does one become a mother?" Since we Catholics believe at conception, then a person becomes a founder at the conception of the charism. Canon law also states that the local bishop is to be a loving, nurturing father to emerging charisms. I should think this also applies to the laity. Everything I do is in alignment with Rome. I follow the same canon law as other emerging charisms. We have about 7 aspirants for the Cloisterites, and about 4 (2 active; 1 recluse and 1 laity) for the CCMMs. The Cloisterites are living under a modified rule in their own homes (following Canon 603), until I can get the eremetical version done. The CCMMs are learning about Vincentian spirituality. So, what's so imaginary about that? Some of the aspirants are also planning to make some of the other charisms come to pass, when the time comes. Since it takes 4 to constitute a community, if there are 4 for any of the emerging charisms, we will help that group get started. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perpetualove Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 If that is the case, then kindly provide addresses and the Archdiocese(s) that are overseeing these individual foundations. Thank you. Perpetualove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemma Posted June 12, 2008 Author Share Posted June 12, 2008 [quote name='Perpetualove' post='1568764' date='Jun 11 2008, 09:01 PM']If that is the case, then kindly provide addresses and the Archdiocese(s) that are overseeing these individual foundations. Thank you. Perpetualove[/quote] We're not to that point yet. Everything--all of the groundwork--has to be done before submitting the paperwork to the appropriate ordinary. The group has to be living together--living the rule--for some time before the submission of the rule and customary for diocesan approval. Fr. Gambari's book says that there is no blueprint for the establishment of a community, other than getting the following things together: rule, constitutions, aspirants, remunerative work. If the emerging charism is having a problem securing a facility, they can ask the ordinary's assistance. Such is part of the great frustration in making a new foundation. Every step has to be discerned. We can make out as many plans as we want, but, as I said, every step has to be discerned. I had been planning a cenobitic community for 20 years, but the Holy Ghost made a sudden right turn, and now we're assembling an eremetical charism-in-diaspora. I also cannot post my personal address due to familial safety concerns. I am in the Diocese of Charlotte, NC, though. Blessings, Gemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnavarro61 Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 hey, this is very surprising. okay, relax, relax, relax... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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