Cloisterite Foundation Update

[EWIE]

[quote name='nunsense' date='May 25 2008, 12:24 AM' post='1541307']
Thank you for your correction. I am obviously "on a different page". My apologies.

Nonsense, No apology necessary Nunsense!!! lol

HAPPY FEAST DAY

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='littlesister' post='1540722' date='May 24 2008, 08:19 PM']All this brings to mind the "Gamaliel Principle" that was drilled into us in school - quite a ways back the road now, by the way : "If it is of God, it will last. If it is not...it won't." Blest are those who have the courage to believe that it is and risk finding out.[/quote]

I want to respond to this topic with just a little different "flavor".....inspiration from two sources, one contemporary (an excerpt from a contemporary Christian song) and one ancient (an excerpt from the Easter Homily of St. John Chrysostom). As I've pondered these words I have been inspired to deeper thought, prayer, contemplation and action....considering the "concepts" presented in these words thoughtfully and prayerfully, placing them in proper "order" in my life has meant a great deal to me personally.

I apologize to the composer (thought I doubt the composer will see this) but I can not even remember the correct Title of this song...here's the excerpt though.

[b]Love to talk about the shepherd boy who stood alone against Goliath
Don't say much about the mighty king who killed a man and took his wife
In his failures and his victories, God heard David sing

You are my shepherd, You are my King
Who I am and what I do is meaning less and less, I glorify You
You are my shepherd, my everything
I will leave myself behind, spend the rest of my whole life chasing after You.[/b]

Chrysostom Easter Homily (I'm sharing the whole first paragraph because I think it is beautiful but the last two sentences are the ones that I think are applicable to the question of "success/failure/trying/chasing after/doing God's will. So much in so few words - no wonder others named him GOLDEN MOUTHED.

[b]Whoever you are, come celebrate this shining happening, this festival of light. You, the devout, God's unshakable lover and you the servant brimming with thanks, come walk into the joy of your Lord. And you the impoverished faster, come for your wages, you who began before sunrise, come for your stipend, you who waited until nine in the morning, the feast is for you. And you the not-till-noon-day starter, do not hesitate, you'll not lose a thing. You who began only at 3 in the afternoon, have no scruples, come to the feast, you who arrived just before sunset, forget you were late, don't be bashful, our master is magnanimous and welcomes the very latest with the very first one. He will not entertain you less, you of the eleventh hour than you the dawn toiler, no not at all.To this one He gives and on that one He showers rewards, whether you were a success or whether you only tried. He will greet you, make much of your effort and extol your intention.[/b]


[indent][/indent]By the way, I want to say that I really liked what Nunsense posted - part of Ms. Moss' response to her questions about new communities - 50 years of existence and service to God and his people can hardly be considered a "failure" or "not lasting" - at least not in my opinion. At the same time, I believe it is right and necessary to question, probe, consider and "try" ourselves (if we are doing the "founding") and those who are bringing the "new" to the Church - what is being proposed is of great importance and the souls who may "join" are precious to God - we ought to be responsible and inspired and let Jesus be successful.

At any rate, I hope that someone may find comfort, peace, inspiration, courage, hope and mercy in the sources quoted.

Peace

[jkaands]

Perhaps it would be instructive to review carefully the history of foundresses as they founded their orders. There is a lot of material on this subject. Most of the communities were founded in the 19th century and earlier. The foundresses often had strong support from local church officials and other saints, St. Francis de Sales for Jande de Chantal and the Visitation, St. Vincent de Paul for Louise de Marillac and the Daughters of Charity. The foundresses and their nuns often begged door to door and endured severe privations. Often there would be mutinies within the congregations by unsuitable members who would isolate or kick out the foundress. But people went forward because of their determination and toughness and I think many of the sisters persevered because for many there was no possibility of return to secular life.

It's different now, especially for the 'older vocation' or for anyone who has established themselves in secular life. They have to give up their jobs which may have health insurance and retirement benefits, apartments or houses, maybe selling the latter in the current down market or at a loss, , cars, friends and many other things to enter. If the order fails, and in many ways it can fail, the person is stranded and has to start all over again discerning and supporting herself while she discerns.

To say that that whether the order survives or fails is "the will of God" is, I think, being very simplistic. It is extremely difficult to discern God's will, as many on this forum have discovered, and just because someone thinks that they are following God's will in founding a community doesn't mean that they are actually doing so.

In addition I think that the putative founder or foundress is taking on a huge responsibility for those who follow her into the fledgling community. There must be a huge amount of support at all levels including financial. The Daughters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist in Ann Arbor were heavily underwritten by Tom Monaghan, the founder and CEO of Domino's pizza. There must be great spiritual support and sources for the training, which for the DMME came from their mother order, the Nashville Dominicans. Cardinal Cushing of New York founded the Sisters for Life and I am sure had many resources at his disposal.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1543456' date='May 26 2008, 01:12 PM']Perhaps it would be instructive to review carefully the history of foundresses as they founded their orders. There is a lot of material on this subject. Most of the communities were founded in the 19th century and earlier. The foundresses often had strong support from local church officials and other saints, St. Francis de Sales for Jande de Chantal and the Visitation, St. Vincent de Paul for Louise de Marillac and the Daughters of Charity. The foundresses and their nuns often begged door to door and endured severe privations. Often there would be mutinies within the congregations by unsuitable members who would isolate or kick out the foundress. But people went forward because of their determination and toughness and I think many of the sisters persevered because for many there was no possibility of return to secular life.

It's different now, especially for the 'older vocation' or for anyone who has established themselves in secular life. They have to give up their jobs which may have health insurance and retirement benefits, apartments or houses, maybe selling the latter in the current down market or at a loss, , cars, friends and many other things to enter. If the order fails, and in many ways it can fail, the person is stranded and has to start all over again discerning and supporting herself while she discerns.

To say that that whether the order survives or fails is "the will of God" is, I think, being very simplistic. It is extremely difficult to discern God's will, as many on this forum have discovered, and just because someone thinks that they are following God's will in founding a community doesn't mean that they are actually doing so.

In addition I think that the putative founder or foundress is taking on a huge responsibility for those who follow her into the fledgling community. There must be a huge amount of support at all levels including financial. The Daughters of Mary Mother of the Eucharist in Ann Arbor were heavily underwritten by Tom Monaghan, the founder and CEO of Domino's pizza. There must be great spiritual support and sources for the training, which for the DMME came from their mother order, the Nashville Dominicans. Cardinal Cushing of New York founded the Sisters for Life and I am sure had many resources at his disposal.[/quote]
It was Cardinal O'Connor (who was Bishop O'Connor at the time) who founded the Sisters of Life.

[jkaands]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1543460' date='May 26 2008, 01:30 PM']It was Cardinal O'Connor (who was Bishop O'Connor at the time) who founded the Sisters of Life.[/quote]

Sorry.

However, the point remains.

[EWIE]

[quote name='jkaands' date='May 26 2008, 01:12 PM' post='1543456']
To say that that whether the order survives or fails is "the will of God" is, I think, being very simplistic. It is extremely difficult to discern God's will, as many on this forum have discovered, and just because someone thinks that they are following God's will in founding a community doesn't mean that they are actually doing so.
In addition I think that the putative founder or foundress is taking on a huge responsibility for those who follow her into the fledgling community. There must be a huge amount of support at all levels including financial.

Ah, at last, a voice of sanity in a sea of confusion. Jkaands message contains some of the wisest advise I have seen on here. Thank you for posting it.

[williamb]

What exactly is EWIE's problem anyhow? This is the second person that I know of she has attacked, saying she didn't mean to the whole while.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='williamb' post='1544047' date='May 26 2008, 08:48 PM']What exactly is EWIE's problem anyhow? This is the second person that I know of she has attacked, saying she didn't mean to the whole while.[/quote]

I was wondering the same as well. As far as Gemma and her foundations go, who are we to question whether or not God is acting in her inspirations?? If God wills it her communities will prosper and their members will persevere, and may God grant that it be so. I don't think anyone on THIS FORUM is qualified to question her. Let's leave that to the responsible bishop and spiritual directors. Its not our job. I think those on this forum should focus more supporting one another.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Saint Therese

[Saint Therese]

[quote]Ok, so now EWIE and others can slam me again, but I can't help it. I am in love with Jesus, and I don't care who knows it! And love makes one a little impulsive. [/quote]

Thats beautiful!

[MissScripture]

I have one question: How come it means that it wasn't God's will for a community to exist if a community doesn't last for a long period of time? How do we know that it wasn't God's will that it be in existance for however long it did last?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1544395' date='May 27 2008, 05:37 AM']Sometimes I wonder how many of us would actually follow Christ if we were around when He walked the earth. How many of us would be like the rich young man who wanted to follow Christ, but when told that he would have to sell everything and give it to the poor, decided that he just couldn't do it. Jesus was saddened because of the young man's inability to trust Him.

Isn't it the same today when we have to worry about our cars and jobs and 401Ks and all of those other things that we might lose if, God forbid, for any reason, we are unable to continue in a community.

All I know is that in trying to give my life to Jesus, I have now started all over again in my life with absolutely nothing, and yet I regret nothing. I feel blessed to have been a Carmelite, even if it was for only 8 months. And I feel blessed to be given another chance to try again in another community - no matter what the final outcome may be. After all, what does it profit a man [or woman] if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? I would rather pile up my treasures in heaven than here on earth.

Yes, I am a fanatic. I readily admit it. And I realize that not everyone feels the same way I do. That's fine. I only have to please God in this life. So that is what I am trying to do. Only He knows if I am succeeding.

So, I support anyone who feels called to serve God, however they may feel that call. Despite what anyone thinks, God is in charge, and He will allow some new communities to succeed and others to fail, but He will use it all for His glory and for the sanctification of our souls.

Whatever must have the families of the Apostles thought when they dropped their work and just walked off to join Jesus? I wonder if they debated whether to wait until a viable community was formed and they could guarantee their retirement funds and health plans?? Yes, I know, I am being silly... but come on guys -- think about it. Are we trying to line up a vocation like we would a job or a mortgage? We have become so "practical" and cautious that, let's face it, we just wouldn't cut it as disciples in the "good old days".

Ok, so now EWIE and others can slam me again, but I can't help it. I am in love with Jesus, and I don't care who knows it! And love makes one a little impulsive. [/quote]

Annie, what you write is beautiful, but it is not relevant to anything Ewie or I said (I presume that I am one of the 'others', the second-class Christians who wouldn't make good disciples because we lack the impulsivity to sell everything we have, be fanatics for Jesus, etc). You seem to be taking all of my comments as signs of my disbelief in the potential and viability of new communities and derision about their founders. That's not what I wrote. A quieter, more cautious approach does not signify a lack of faith or trust. It does not mean that the cautious person is trying to line up a vocation like a job or a mortgage. It doesn't mean that people who don't go into transports of emotion at the thought of founding a new community 'wouldn't cut it as disciples'. It just means that we have different personalities - which, I hope, are just as valuable to God as more emotional and passionate temperaments.

If you interpret this as a 'slam', I'm truly sorry. It's not intended to be, although it is difficult not to feel slightly hurt and angry at your implicit suggestion that those of us who don't feel things in the same way as you do aren't in love with Jesus. After all, if impulsivity is a measure of love, where does that leave people like me?

[Gemma]

My, but I do seem to have precipitated a tempest in a teapot here!

EWIE--God bless you!!! Everyone needs to know how generous you've been with not only your avatar and one similar to it, but also your prayers and support. I'd also like to insert here that Cathoholic Anonymous has Aspergers Autism like I do, and may not be able to express herself as she would like.

Jkaands--I have been reading the lives of founders for many, many years. I became Catholic at 16, and started reading this particular line of hagiography then. As Mother Teresa said, "God's got lots of money." When the funds are supposed to be there, they will be there.

Nunsense--Our Cloisterites are your emerging charism's cloistered branch. Tell Mother not to worry about that right now. Part of our Cloisterite charism is to pray for emerging communities, since no one else is doing that. Because we are doing that, then the emerging charisms should have more of a fighting chance of survival. (Would it be possible to obtain a copy of the spiritual directory and application for our records)?

All others--thanks for your support.

If I might add a bit more to the Cloisterite Foundational update here--the Sisters of Mary Reparatrix (SMRs) have denied our request for their Pre-VatII rule and constitutions. They don't observe them anymore, but nobody has a right to live them anymore, either. That includes the habit. I've even been told to take all references to their charism off our website. Last I checked, their foundress belonged to the Church, as did her writings. Why not just add a disclaimer that we have nothing to do with the SMRs?

So, now we're discerning further actions. I was advised not to make major decisions when in the midst of the temptest, but to get quiet and listen for further instructions.

For those without a spiritual director--the Liturgy of the Hours is a good stand-in. The canonist I saw last Thursday suggested this to me. When I opened the LOTH this morning, the first line of the Psalms was that used in the Rite of Exorcism, and the first line of the readings was from Ecclesiastes, which is also the first line of the Cloisterite Constitutions.

At any rate, before going on vacation this weekend, I ran off as many eremetical rules as I could find. The Cloisterites-in-Diaspora will have a rule of similar make-up to that of the cenobitical community which came from many rules. The Cloisterites represent all orders, therefore, the rule is compiled from all rules.

Blessings,
Gemma

[EWIE]

[quote name='Gemma' date='May 27 2008, 07:43 AM' post='1544751']
My, but I do seem to have precipitated a tempest in a teapot here!

[b]Actually, I found it a very honest discussion of some important points to consider, especially for newbies.[/b]

I ran off as many eremetical rules as I could find.

[b]
I have them all as I had to research them myself at one time. Let me know what ones you found and if you are missing any, I will send them to you.[/b]

[b]Jesus stilled the storm, while in the [b]middle of the storm.[/b][/b]

Blessings and peace Gemma.
Remember, vacation means to VACATE....so enjoy your family time and leave all the concerns and distractions behind while on vacation and just breath.


Someone recently said to me regarding Hilary Clinton, "just because you slept with the president, doesnt make you a president." I thought that could be applied in many ways.ie.
Just because I've read a book on dentistry, doesn't make me a dentist. Just because I've read a book on the saints, doesn make me a saint. Just because I've read all the books on religious life, doesnt make me a religious.

[HollyDolly]

For the Cloisterettes perhasp the best thing to do would be study the rules of St.Augustine,St.Benedict,St.Francis ,and St.Dominic,as these are public domain so to speak,and have proven themselves over the centuries.You could use one of these rules of life for the Cloisterettes and no one would care
and perhasp the superior generals of these communities could offer some valubale advice.

It's hard to give everything up for someone and move from place to place,because you love them.
My dad was in the US AirForce for 33 years,and whereever he went ,we went too.
It was probably the same in the days of the Apostles,who beside preaching,must have done some maunel labor to
to earn money for food and shelter for the family.

There are many things invovled in founding a community,and I believe the bible says The Lord helps them who help
themselves. The community needs to look into health care for it's members for example.How are they going to afford the group premiums,after all,we are not like Canada,England,etc.where there is national health coverage for all,and even private insurance if you want it.
If a member leaves,they have to have some money to start to support themselves with when they leave,which I assume is where a dowry comes in.
For whatever reasons,new communities fail.Perhasp the timing wasn't right,or God decided the members would be better off in the secular world, or there is much opposition from church authorities.Hard to say.
If they did some good for the short time they were here,then may God be praised for trying .
There was a community founded in Panna Maria ,texas known as the Sisters of the Immaculate Conception,also called Blue Sisters from their habit.They were founded by some Sisters of Divine Providence of San Antonio to teach the Polish and German children of the area.However they disbanded due to internal conflicts with members i believe.
The sisters went and joined other communities,this was back in the 1880s.
If someone spends time in the convent and leaves during the postulancy or noviate,it doesn't mean they are a bad person,it may just mean the community they joined wasn't right for them.
God is trying to steer them in another direction.The time wasn't wasted,and they can use their experiences there throughout the rest of their life.
There is just so much invovled in this,one just wants to make sure that they are truly following God's wishes.

[EWIE]

Ok, so now EWIE and others can slam me again,
[b]
I wasn't aware that I had slammed you and I am sorry that is your perception. I was rather under the impression that you were a revered and long standing member of this phorum.[/b]

[b]to williamb and st therese---I didn't know I had a problem. Please, tell me what it is.[/b]


[b]I am only responsible for what I say, not for what you hear.[/b]