Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[mortify]

[quote name='prose' post='1549594' date='May 30 2008, 01:21 PM']Well, I tend to think that if Pope Benedict thinks that the theology is off, that it probably is. And, no offense, but I would follow what he believes more than I would a random person on a forum (not that I don't respect your opinion, I just respect his more).[/quote]

I wasn't asking you to believe me, take a look at past Church teachings.

[quote]As for purgatory being "lower" than "limbo", that doesn't even make sense. IF you believe in Limbo, then you believe they are not in heaven, so therefore, they must be closer to hell than souls that are being prepared for heaven.[/quote]

Obviously those that are damned in hell are in a lower degree than those who are being purified. If you think in terms of degrees it makes sense, whether its true is another thing.

Edited May 31, 2008 by mortify

[prose]

[quote name='mortify' post='1550021' date='May 30 2008, 08:07 PM']I wasn't asking you to believe me, take a look at past Church teachings.[/quote]

I understand what you are saying. All I am saying is that the Church is a living thing that grows and directs over time. Seems to me that Pope Benedict has leaned towards that Limbo may not exist. Even if he hadn't, I wouldn't be obliged to believe it because it is not dogma.

The funny thing is that I neither believe or don't believe in Limbo, I simply stick to the fact that we don't know. I just think it is important that people don't feel they MUST believe in something that may not (and currently as the movement is going, probably does not) exist. We should not be preaching on here in a way that makes it looks like an infallible teaching when the Church has never made it such.

[mortify]

[quote name='prose' post='1550939' date='May 31 2008, 02:23 PM']I understand what you are saying. All I am saying is that the Church is a living thing that grows and directs over time. Seems to me that Pope Benedict has leaned towards that Limbo may not exist. Even if he hadn't, I wouldn't be obliged to believe it because it is not dogma.

The funny thing is that I neither believe or don't believe in Limbo, I simply stick to the fact that we don't know. I just think it is important that people don't feel they MUST believe in something that may not (and currently as the movement is going, probably does not) exist. We should not be preaching on here in a way that makes it looks like an infallible teaching when the Church has never made it such.[/quote]

Prose, I wish it were as simple as the newer abrogating the former but it's not. St Peter used to sit with gentiles until a group of Christian Jews came to his area, St Paul scolded him for distancing himself from gentiles. There has to be consistency. The Church taught with [i]absolute certainty[/i] the necessity of baptism even for infants because they would not be saved otherwise. Nowadays it is an unknown what happens to infants that die without baptism, and therefore there is some hope. Are you as confused as I am?

[Apotheoun]

All of these attempts to spatially locate the afterlife are nonsense.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1551284' date='May 31 2008, 07:40 PM']All of these attempts to spatially locate the afterlife are nonsense.[/quote]

Nothing wrong with speculating. The East has it's own speculations, consider for example demonic toll booths.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mortify' post='1551314' date='May 31 2008, 06:58 PM']Nothing wrong with speculating. The East has it's own speculations, consider for example demonic toll booths.[/quote]
The toll booth nonsense is just that, nonsense. None of my Orthodox friends take it seriously.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1551316' date='May 31 2008, 08:00 PM']The toll booth nonsense is just that, nonsense. None of my Orthodox friends take it seriously.[/quote]

St John Chysostom:
[color="#0000FF"]"If, in setting out for any foreign country or city we are in need of guides, then how much shall we need helpers and guides in order to pass unhindered past the elders, the powers, the governors of the air, the persecutors, the chief collectors! For this reason, the soul, flying away from the body, often ascends and descends, fears and trembles. The awareness of sins always torments us, all the more at that hour when we shall have to be conducted to those trials and that frightful judgement place."

"The holy angels peacefully separated us from our bodies, and having good guides, we went without harm past the powers of the air. The evil spirits did not find in us what they were seeking; they did not notice what they wished to put to shame; seeing an immaculate soul, they were ashamed; seeing an undefiled tongue, they were silent. We passed by and put them to shame. The net was rent, and we were delivered. Blessed is God Who did not give us as a prey to them"[/color] (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 2, "On Remembering the Dead")

From: [url="http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/tollhouse_pomaz.aspx"][u]OrthodoxInfo: Question on "Toll-Houses"[/u][/url]

Who knows whether its true, it's interesting non the less.

[Apotheoun]

The synods of the Russian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and several others, have rejected the "toll houses" speculation as contrary to Orthodox tradition.

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1548506' date='May 29 2008, 05:49 PM']The Limbo of the Fathers was the "edge" of hell, and they were not being purified. It makes sense to say purgatory is somewhere between limbo and the damned.
Did you get a chance to read the article I posted? Here are some examples to consider:
[color="#0000FF"][b]The Greater Catechism of PP. St. Pius X[/b]: “11 Q. When should infants be brought to the Church to be baptised? A. Infants should be brought to the Church to be baptised as soon as possible. 12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism? A. There should be the [b]greatest anxiety[/b] to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and [b]cannot be saved without Baptism[/b].
[/color]
Is this an official teaching about limbo? Not exactly, but it is an official teaching that infants can't make it to heaven without baptism. The question is whether such infants suffer in hell. The theory is they don't because they only have original sin at death:

[color="#0000FF"][b]PP. Innocent III[/b] “[b]The penalty of original sin is the loss of the vision of God;[/b] the penalty of actual sin is the torment of everlasting Hell.” (Maiores Ecclesiae Causas, AD 1201; Denzinger 410 [780].)[/color]

This starts to sound like the concept of limbo.

[color="#0000FF"][b]The Baltimore Catechism[/b] (n. 3): “Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation? A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism? A. [b]Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through[size=3][u] no fault of theirs[/u][/size], die without baptism, [u]cannot enter heaven[/u];[/b] but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven....[/color]
All this is official Catholic teaching and it's clear. So what are we to make of contemporary reports of there still being a hope for infants dying without baptism? I don't know.[/quote]

[indent]Please excuse me, but I just want to know if this teaching regarding ‘purgatory’ is scriptural? What is the sense of Holy Spirit which guarantees inheritance as it is written in Eph 1:13-14

[color="#FF0000"]13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit , 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory. [/color]
NIV[/indent]


[indent]Can you please explain it to me in the light of the scripture? (I want to know this teaching).
[/indent]

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='mortify' post='1537975' date='May 22 2008, 08:58 PM']What do you think?[/quote]
I think that the poll has too many options.

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' post='1585467' date='Jun 28 2008, 03:34 AM']Can you please explain it to me in the light of the scripture? (I want to know this teaching).
[/indent][/quote]

Hi reyb,

There are many verses that explicitly or implicitly support purgatory but I think 1 Cor 3:5-14 is one of the clearest.
[color="#0000FF"]
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. [b]But each one should be careful how he builds.[/b] 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because [b]the Day[/b] will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and [b]the fire[/b] will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself [b]will be saved[/b], but only as one escaping through the flames.[/color]

First of all this passage is taking about Christians because only Christians build on the foundation which is Christ. On the "Day," which refers either to the particular or general judgment, each person's works will be judged via fire. If a person had good deeds they will pass through the fire with no problem and they will receive their reward. If the person has bad deeds, they will be purged in the fire though they themselves will be saved in the end.

Edited July 3, 2008 by mortify

[Deb]

[quote name='prose' post='1546423' date='May 28 2008, 01:56 PM']Well, seeing as Limbo has not ever been accepted or rejected officially, as it stands, I am not sure I believe in its existence. HOWEVER, taht being said, I think Purgatory is a third location, yes.

The Great Divorce by CS Lewis explains a view on purgatory that I think is very accurate. If anything, I would think Purgatory would be closer to heaven than hell.

But I ain't no theologian.[/quote]


I just finished reading The Great Divorce today. Loved it. Wonderful view on it. It gave me a whole new perspective on the term IN love. Recommend to everyone!

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538138' date='May 22 2008, 09:42 PM']I once read where a spiritual master (I forget who, I'm so bad at details) theorized that the mercy of God is so immense and so intense that there very well may be NO souls in hell.

This is tricky though because clearly Jesus talked about hell as a reality, with people going there and people in there.

But I'm down for the amnesty idea. This is not a far stretch at all.[/quote]

Many saints have seen visions of hell, and there have been people there. In one apparation, Mary said that "souls are falling into hell like snowflakes..."

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1589628' date='Jul 2 2008, 10:14 PM']Hi reyb,

There are many verses that explicitly or implicitly support purgatory but I think 1 Cor 3:5-14 is one of the clearest.
[color="#0000FF"]
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. [b]But each one should be careful how he builds.[/b] 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because [b]the Day[/b] will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and [b]the fire[/b] will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself [b]will be saved[/b], but only as one escaping through the flames.[/color]

First of all this passage is taking about Christians because only Christians build on the foundation which is Christ. On the "Day," which refers either to the particular or general judgment, each person's works will be judged via fire. If a person had good deeds they will pass through the fire with no problem and they will receive their reward. If the person has bad deeds, they will be purged in the fire though they themselves will be saved in the end.[/quote]


[indent]First (before we discuss our subject verse), I think it is better to define Purgatory in accordance with the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and this is what I get in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm[/url]
-------------------
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.
--------------------------------
Thus, it is clear that Purgatory is a place or condition of temporal punishment for the soul of deceased believers though not yet holy or has not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions but departed in this life in God’s grace.

If I get it correctly, ‘departed in this life in God’s grace’ means died as a believer or baptized inside the Roman Catholic Church from where God’s grace was given.

My question is why this doctrine is necessary? I mean, what is the reason behind this doctrine?[/indent]

Edited July 9, 2008 by reyb

[Deb]

The Blessed Mother of Medjugorje said that very few souls go directly to heaven. Many to hell and many to purgatory.