Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[Deb]

I think that maybe just having to be alone, without Jesus, and seeing our sins as God sees them is our fire. I do not think we will have any sense of time or place, just the pain of our failings.

[StColette]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1545268' date='May 27 2008, 06:30 PM']JMJ
5/27 - St. Anselm of Canterbury

This is PIO NONO on Fr. Pontifex's computer. I'm too lazy to log him out and log in as myself, so please do NOT send him comments. Send them to Pio Nono.

Allright...[i]prima primo[/i]...the selection from the [i]Summa [/i]put forth earlier is NOT the work of Thomas and should not be treated as such. Rather, it is from the [i]Supplementum [/i]put out after Thomas' death, and its author is Raimondo Piperno. It is probably close to what Thomas would have taught, but it is NOT authentic Thomas.

The reason why this is important is because it deviates in a substantial way from Thomas' own thought. In the question, the second article speaks of the "punishment" of the damned. The way I read Summa Ia-IIae, q. 87, one properly uses the word "punishment" only in reference to those debts one incurs because of sin [i]which can be wiped away[/i]. Thus, hell is not properly a "punishment," but the natural result of a total rejection of God. Purgatory, therefore, is not necessarily a simple "purification" as one would apply bleach to a dirty shirt; rather, it is true "punishment" in that one makes up for the debt of one's sins. Punishment seems to be properly medicinal, though it can be to serve as an example (this second point is immaterial to the argument; we don't want God inflicting the punishment of hell as an example to others...that creates a huge problem).

If my reading of Thomas is correct (and it is not necessarily so), then there is a fundamental difference between the "fire" of hell and the punishment one receives in Purgatory [i]because their purposes are different[/i]. One object cannot achieve two fundamentally different ends.[/quote]

[prose]

[quote name='mortify' post='1545548' date='May 27 2008, 07:53 PM']Interesting thoughts, but then the question is where are the souls in purgatory? Are we talking about a third location apart from Heaven and Hell? If you say purgatory is proximate to hell, such that it is below the limbo patrum but above the damed, you can hypothetically say it's part of hell. Interestingly some early Christians, and perhaps some contemporary as well, believe hell to be temporal, perhaps in this sense it is but depending on where in "hell" you are.

Anyway, I'm probably totally wrong about this. It's interesting what you pointed out about the statement not being part of the Summa. It doesn't address the fact that St Augustine believed the fire to be the same, but it does give room to consider different options.

God bless[/quote]

Well, seeing as Limbo has not ever been accepted or rejected officially, as it stands, I am not sure I believe in its existence. HOWEVER, taht being said, I think Purgatory is a third location, yes.

The Great Divorce by CS Lewis explains a view on purgatory that I think is very accurate. If anything, I would think Purgatory would be closer to heaven than hell.

But I ain't no theologian.

[StColette]

[quote name='mortify' post='1545548' date='May 27 2008, 08:53 PM']Interesting thoughts, but then the question is where are the souls in purgatory? Are we talking about a third location apart from Heaven and Hell? If you say purgatory is proximate to hell, such that it is below the limbo patrum but above the damed, you can hypothetically say it's part of hell. Interestingly some early Christians, and perhaps some contemporary as well, believe hell to be temporal, perhaps in this sense it is but depending on where in "hell" you are.[/quote]

I believe purgatory to be a third location. I wonder if the influence of Dante has caused an association of purgatory as being a higher level of hell.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1538132' date='May 22 2008, 09:37 PM']Purgatory is one of my favorite teachings! I definitely believe in it and I pray for the holy souls all the time. Especially when I get a ringing in my ear.

The question of duration should be taken off the table because one can't possibly know. It's a "sentencing suits the crime" kind of thing. Short for some, long for others.[/quote]
But what does time mean in the context of eternity? What does a thousand years mean? A million? For God, time has no meaning -- all is the present to Him. Will that be the same for us or will we continue to experience time, i.e. have memories, anticipate the future?

[StColette]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1546453' date='May 28 2008, 02:12 PM']But what does time mean in the context of eternity? What does a thousand years mean? A million? For God, time has no meaning -- all is the present to Him. Will that be the same for us or will we continue to experience time, i.e. have memories, anticipate the future?[/quote]

Experience time in purgatory and anticipate the future?

The question of time in purgatory is quite interesting, because it is both outside of time and outside of eternity. St. Thomas Aquinas defined the "time experienced" in purgatory as aeviternity or aeveternity, which according to him is a mean between both time and eternity. I would think the souls in purgatory anticipate their union with God when their purging is finished.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='prose' post='1546423' date='May 28 2008, 11:56 AM']Well, seeing as Limbo has not ever been accepted or rejected officially, as it stands, I am not sure I believe in its existence. HOWEVER, taht being said, I think Purgatory is a third location, yes.

The Great Divorce by CS Lewis explains a view on purgatory that I think is very accurate. If anything, I would think Purgatory would be closer to heaven than hell.

But I ain't no theologian.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
amazing book! loved it!

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='prose' post='1546423' date='May 28 2008, 12:56 PM']The Great Divorce by CS Lewis explains a view on purgatory that I think is very accurate. If anything, I would think Purgatory would be closer to heaven than hell.[/quote]
Interesting book. Great read, too, BTW. Anyway, in Lewis' conception, Heaven or Hell was ultimately our choice. What was particularly interesting about it is the view of how we can become trapped by our own nature, to ill effect as with Frank and the Tragedian or to beneficial effect as with the soul who allowed part of his nature to be killed but then resurrected, that which had been killed still an essential part of him but now glorified.

[mortify]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1545550' date='May 27 2008, 07:55 PM']I problem I have with fire is that as spirits/souls, we won't have nerve endings, so talking about that kind of pain doesn't make any sense to me. What our souls can experience as pain would be loneliness or boredom, or the absence of love.[/quote]

Catherine, that's the obvious objection but we have to consider the numerous verses that mention a real fire. If it is a literal fire, it's certainly not an earthly fire, and as to how a physical fire can cause harm to a spirit, St Thomas has an answer: the same way a soul can suffer by it's union to a physical body, so will the damned feel pain by their union to the physical fire.


Prose said:
[quote]Well, seeing as Limbo has not ever been accepted or rejected officially, as it stands, I am not sure I believe in its existence. HOWEVER, taht being said, I think Purgatory is a third location, yes.[/quote]

Prose, what you've said about Limbo is inaccurate. It has been a long standing teaching that Limbo is real, and certainly if you pick up an old Catechism you'll find this to be the case. I recommend viewing this [url="http://iteadthomam.blogspot.com/2006/05/disputed-question-on-limbo-positive.html#links"][b][u]article on limbo[/u][/b][/url] which gives many sources on the Catholic Church's teaching.

I think the difference between the past and present Catholic teaching is that everything has become nebulous. In the old days if an infant died without baptism there was no question that babe would be denied the Beatific Vision. In our day there is a lot of [i]mystery[/i], perhaps by some means we are totally unaware of this babe still makes it to heaven. So even though the Church dogmatically teaches dying in a state of original sin sends you to hell, and that baptism or its substitute is absolutely necessary, who's to say anyone dies in original sin?

Council of Carthage XVI: [b]“Not one of our children is held innocent until he is freed through baptism.”[/b] (Denzinger 109a [232])

[quote]The Great Divorce by CS Lewis explains a view on purgatory that I think is very accurate. If anything, I would think Purgatory would be closer to heaven than hell.[/quote]

Well if purgatory exists there is a problem with this idea. Since it is a place of intense pain and torment it's more likely to be (at least) closer to hell.

[AngelofMusic]

Purgatory is definitely a place! When you commit sins in earth it distorts your vision, so if you tried to see God in your unholy state, you would.. be destroyed by the awesome power.

So purgatory [as I've been taught] is the place were souls going to heaven go to be cleansed and "scrubbed". But the cleansing is more like taking off a bandage. Yes it hurts. But you know that the hurt is leading to something good.

That's what I was taught anyways...

[StColette]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1548118' date='May 29 2008, 10:14 AM']Purgatory is definitely a place! When you commit sins in earth it distorts your vision, so if you tried to see God in your unholy state, you would.. be destroyed by the awesome power.

So purgatory [as I've been taught] is the place were souls going to heaven go to be cleansed and "scrubbed". But the cleansing is more like taking off a bandage. Yes it hurts. But you know that the hurt is leading to something good.

That's what I was taught anyways...[/quote]

So you have been paying attention in youth group!

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='StColette' post='1548122' date='May 29 2008, 09:15 AM']So you have been paying attention in youth group![/quote]

Of course Jenny!

I do pay attention!!

[prose]

[quote name='mortify' post='1546833' date='May 28 2008, 03:41 PM']Well if purgatory exists there is a problem with this idea. Since it is a place of intense pain and torment it's more likely to be (at least) closer to hell.[/quote]

It may feel like Hell, but the promise of salvation certainly makes it closer to heaven than hell.

As for Limbo, it is not an official teaching of the Church. I am not obliged to believe it.

[quote][url="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1613390,00.html"]http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1613390,00.html[/url]

Pope Benedict XVI has reversed centuries of traditional Roman Catholic teaching on limbo, approving a Vatican report released Friday that says there were "serious" grounds to hope that children who die without being baptized can go to heaven.



Theologians said the move was highly significant, both for what it says about Benedict's willingness to buck a long-standing tenet of Catholic belief and for what it means theologically about the Church's views on heaven, hell and original sin — the sin that the faithful believe all children are born with. Although Catholics have long believed that children who die without being baptized are with original sin and thus excluded from heaven, the Church has no formal doctrine on the matter. Theologians, however, have long taught that such children enjoy an eternal state of perfect natural happiness, a state commonly called limbo, but without being in communion with God. "If there's no limbo and we're not going to revert to St. Augustine's teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell, we're left with only one option, namely, that everyone is born in the state of grace," said the Rev. Richard McBrien, professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame. "Baptism does not exist to wipe away the 'stain' of original sin, but to initiate one into the Church," he said in an e-mailed response.

Benedict approved the findings of the International Theological Commission, a Vatican advisory panel, which said it was reassessing traditional teaching on limbo in light of "pressing" pastoral needs — primarily the growing number of abortions and infants born to non-believers who die without being baptized. While the report does not carry the authority of a papal encyclical or even the weight of a formal document from the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, it was approved by the Pope on Jan. 19 and was published on the Internet — an indication that it was intended to be widely read by the faithful.

"We can say we have many reasons to hope that there is salvation for these babies," the Rev. Luis Ladaria, a Jesuit who is the commission's secretary-general, told The Associated Press. He stressed that there was no certainty, just hope. The Commission posted its document Friday on Origins, the documentary service of Catholic News Service, the news agency of the American Bishop's Conference.

The document traces centuries of Church views on the fate of unbaptized infants, paying particular attention to the writings of St. Augustine — the 4th century bishop who is particularly dear to Benedict. Augustine wrote that such infants do go to hell, but they suffer only the "mildest condemnation." In the document, the commission said such views are now out of date and there were "serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision." It stressed, however, that "these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge." No one can know for certain what becomes of unbaptized babies since Scripture is largely silent on the matter, the report said. It stressed that none of its findings should be taken as diminishing the need for parents to baptize infants. "Rather ... they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the church."

Vatican watchers hailed the decision as both a sensitive and significant move by Benedict. "Parents who are mourning the death of their child are no longer going to be burdened with the added guilt of not having gotten their child baptized," said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University. He said the document also had implications for non-Christians, since it could be seen as suggesting that non-baptized adults could go to heaven if they led a good life. "I think it shows that Benedict is trying to balance his view of Jesus as being central as the savior of the world ... but at the same time not saying what the Evangelicals say, that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus is going to hell," he said in a phone interview.

The International Theological Commission is a body of Vatican-appointed theologians who advise the pope and the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Benedict headed the Congregation for two decades before becoming pope in 2005.[/quote]

Editted for better article.

Edited May 29, 2008 by prose

[mortify]

[quote name='prose' post='1548356' date='May 29 2008, 12:57 PM']It may feel like Hell, but the promise of salvation certainly makes it closer to heaven than hell.[/quote]

The Limbo of the Fathers was the "edge" of hell, and they were not being purified. It makes sense to say purgatory is somewhere between limbo and the damned.

[quote]As for Limbo, it is not an official teaching of the Church. I am not obliged to believe it.
Editted for better article.[/quote]

Did you get a chance to read the article I posted? Here are some examples to consider:


[color="#0000FF"][b]The Greater Catechism of PP. St. Pius X[/b]: “11 Q. When should infants be brought to the Church to be baptised? A. Infants should be brought to the Church to be baptised as soon as possible. 12 Q. Why such anxiety to have infants receive Baptism? A. There should be the [b]greatest anxiety[/b] to have infants baptised because, on account of their tender age, they are exposed to many dangers of death, and [b]cannot be saved without Baptism[/b].
[/color]
Is this an official teaching about limbo? Not exactly, but it is an official teaching that infants can't make it to heaven without baptism. The question is whether such infants suffer in hell. The theory is they don't because they only have original sin at death:

[color="#0000FF"][b]PP. Innocent III[/b] “[b]The penalty of original sin is the loss of the vision of God;[/b] the penalty of actual sin is the torment of everlasting Hell.” (Maiores Ecclesiae Causas, AD 1201; Denzinger 410 [780].)[/color]

This starts to sound like the concept of limbo.

[color="#0000FF"][b]The Baltimore Catechism[/b] (n. 3): “Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation? A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Q. 632. Where will persons go who -- such as infants -- have not committed actual sin and who, through no fault of theirs, die without baptism? A. [b]Persons, such as infants, who have not committed actual sin and who, through[size=3][u] no fault of theirs[/u][/size], die without baptism, [u]cannot enter heaven[/u];[/b] but it is the common belief they will go to some place similar to Limbo, where they will be free from suffering, though deprived of the happiness of heaven....[/color]


All this is official Catholic teaching and it's clear. So what are we to make of contemporary reports of there still being a hope for infants dying without baptism? I don't know.

Edited May 29, 2008 by mortify

[prose]

Well, I tend to think that if Pope Benedict thinks that the theology is off, that it probably is. And, no offense, but I would follow what he believes more than I would a random person on a forum (not that I don't respect your opinion, I just respect his more).

As for purgatory being "lower" than "limbo", that doesn't even make sense. IF you believe in Limbo, then you believe they are not in heaven, so therefore, they must be closer to hell than souls that are being prepared for heaven.