Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mortify' post='1541319' date='May 25 2008, 12:54 AM']Even if this is not the case, the LEAST pain of purgatory is greater than the worst torment on earth.[/quote]

I believe this is absolutely true. That's why I believe it so important to offer to God every bit of suffering on earth, to count towards our Purgatory. We should want to live as much of it here, rather than there. Well, that's a good reason--but also so that we don't "waste" suffering. Suffering should always be offered for SOME redemptive purpose--if not for ourselves then for others.

I think St. Thomas was just positing some theories and no one can ever really know. I'm suspect to the theory of the souls in P being purged with the fires of hell. I can't quite accept that--I'm with Father (few posts above) on that.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1540839' date='May 24 2008, 08:32 PM']Don't the Jews believe in Purgatory.[/quote]

I did a quick Google search and found an interesting article on the beliefs Jews have about the afterlife. The whole link is here: [url="http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html"]http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Je.../section-9.html[/url]

Here are some excerpts:

[quote]As for the question of Purgatory. Again, there is no one Jewish position on the subject, even if we limit ourselves to the traditional Orthodox position.[/quote]

[quote]Rabbinic afterlife teachings varied in different places and times, and
was never synthesized into one coherent philosophy. As such, the
different descriptions of the afterlife are not always consistent with
each other. This is especially true for the descriptions of "Olam
Haba", the world to come. In some rabbinic works this phrase refers to
the messianic era, a physical realm right here on Earth. However, in
other works this phrase means Gan Edan, Paradise (in Heaven, so to
speak), a purely spiritual realm. At various points in the afterlife
journey, the soul is said to encounter:
* Hibbut ha-kever, the pains of the grave
* Dumah, the angel of silence
* The angel of death
* The Kaf ha-Kela, the catapult of the soul
* Gehenna (purgatory) and Gan Eden (Heaven; Paradise)[/quote]

[quote]A number of sources, such as R' Chaim of Vilozhin (founder of
the current Yeshiva movement, late 18th early 19th cent) and R' Israel
of Salant (founder of the Mussar movement, late 18th cent), describe
the fires of gehenna as those of shame. Facing the truth of what one
could have been and seeing what one was.[/quote]


[b]Basically, Gehenna is the closest they come to "Purgatory" but it's still not described exactly like Purgatory that we know to be. Anyone interested will have to read the whole article--it explains a lot more. [/b]

Edited May 25, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[mortify]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1541350' date='May 25 2008, 05:19 AM']I think St. Thomas was just positing some theories and no one can ever really know. I'm suspect to the theory of the souls in P being purged with the fires of hell. I can't quite accept that--I'm with Father (few posts above) on that.[/quote]

If you choose to not believe in a literal fire that's fine, but I'm just curious why this is difficult to accept. St Paul speaks of a fire that purges us, and so do many Latin and Eastern Fathers. If we go by the basis of early teaching, there is a strong case for purgatorial fire.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mortify' post='1541706' date='May 25 2008, 12:29 PM']If you choose to not believe in a literal fire that's fine, but I'm just curious why this is difficult to accept. St Paul speaks of a fire that purges us, and so do many Latin and Eastern Fathers. If we go by the basis of early teaching, there is a strong case for purgatorial fire.[/quote]


Please try to pay attention. I didn't say I have a problem with fire. I said I have a problem with the theory of the souls in Purgatory being cleansed with HELL fire.

[mortify]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1541733' date='May 25 2008, 12:54 PM']Please try to pay attention. I didn't say I have a problem with fire. I said I have a problem with the theory of the souls in Purgatory being cleansed with HELL fire.[/quote]

My apologies, so why do you have a problem with purgatorial fire and hell fire being the same?

[b]"Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed."[/b] St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)

[Veridicus]

[quote name='mortify' post='1541755' date='May 25 2008, 01:14 PM'][b]"Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed."[/b] St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)[/quote]

Nice Quote...I agree with MV though...it just doesn't seem like it would be the same...I don't have the surpassing intellect of Augustine though so I won't really offer an argument...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mortify' post='1541755' date='May 25 2008, 01:14 PM']My apologies, so why do you have a problem with purgatorial fire and hell fire being the same?[/quote]

Yep, and this is my third time saying it.

[Madame Vengier]

And BTW, I said (those three times) that I have a problem with it. I didn't say I would refuse to believe it or that I can't be mistaken. It would take more than a one or two line quote for me to understand it, though. And frankly, it's just not profoundly important to me right now.

[mortify]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1542388' date='May 25 2008, 09:27 PM'][quote]My apologies, so why do you have a problem with purgatorial fire and hell fire being the same?[/quote]

Yep, and this is my third time saying it.
[/quote]

Note the question is *why* you have such a problem, not *if* you have such a problem. Saying "yep" doesn't answer the question, so please pay attention

[Apotheoun]

There are too many options in this poll.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1543883' date='May 26 2008, 07:13 PM']There are too many options in this poll.[/quote]

Yet in another sense too few. We don't know should be an option as to the exact nature of purgatory.

[Pontifex]

JMJ
5/27 - St. Anselm of Canterbury

This is PIO NONO on Fr. Pontifex's computer. I'm too lazy to log him out and log in as myself, so please do NOT send him comments. Send them to Pio Nono.

Allright...[i]prima primo[/i]...the selection from the [i]Summa [/i]put forth earlier is NOT the work of Thomas and should not be treated as such. Rather, it is from the [i]Supplementum [/i]put out after Thomas' death, and its author is Raimondo Piperno. It is probably close to what Thomas would have taught, but it is NOT authentic Thomas.

The reason why this is important is because it deviates in a substantial way from Thomas' own thought. In the question, the second article speaks of the "punishment" of the damned. The way I read Summa Ia-IIae, q. 87, one properly uses the word "punishment" only in reference to those debts one incurs because of sin [i]which can be wiped away[/i]. Thus, hell is not properly a "punishment," but the natural result of a total rejection of God. Purgatory, therefore, is not necessarily a simple "purification" as one would apply bleach to a dirty shirt; rather, it is true "punishment" in that one makes up for the debt of one's sins. Punishment seems to be properly medicinal, though it can be to serve as an example (this second point is immaterial to the argument; we don't want God inflicting the punishment of hell as an example to others...that creates a huge problem).

If my reading of Thomas is correct (and it is not necessarily so), then there is a fundamental difference between the "fire" of hell and the punishment one receives in Purgatory [i]because their purposes are different[/i]. One object cannot achieve two fundamentally different ends.

Just my thoughts.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Pontifex

[prose]

I was thinking about purgatory yesterday, and it occurred to me that we are like copper statues. When we sin, we don't lose our value. God forgives us but we get dented in the process. Purgatory would be where God can restore us to our original state by pounding out the dents. It isn't comfortable, but how much more beautiful works of art will we be when he does

That isn't Church teaching, just an analogy that I came up with late at night

[mortify]

[quote name='PIO NONO' post='1545268' date='May 27 2008, 05:30 PM']Just my thoughts.[/quote]

Interesting thoughts, but then the question is where are the souls in purgatory? Are we talking about a third location apart from Heaven and Hell? If you say purgatory is proximate to hell, such that it is below the limbo patrum but above the damed, you can hypothetically say it's part of hell. Interestingly some early Christians, and perhaps some contemporary as well, believe hell to be temporal, perhaps in this sense it is but depending on where in "hell" you are.

Anyway, I'm probably totally wrong about this. It's interesting what you pointed out about the statement not being part of the Summa. It doesn't address the fact that St Augustine believed the fire to be the same, but it does give room to consider different options.

God bless

[CatherineM]

I problem I have with fire is that as spirits/souls, we won't have nerve endings, so talking about that kind of pain doesn't make any sense to me. What our souls can experience as pain would be loneliness or boredom, or the absence of love.