Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[XIX]

[quote name='mortify' post='1539285' date='May 23 2008, 08:28 PM']I don't think God's mercy is such that it overrides mortal sin, but it's a comforting thought in our weak state.[/quote]
Fortunately/unfortunately, we are not soul readers. At least I don't think anyone on Phatmass is a soul reader. We can speculate until we are blue in the face, but only God knows.

Far be it for me to say that because one is an atheist, that he's also in mortal sin.
Also far me it for me to ever, ever, under any circumstance, give some sort of "canonization eulogy." I'm not trying to be an optimist here, I'm just saying that speculation about the souls of others won't really lead to any definitive conclusions.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='XIX' post='1539719' date='May 24 2008, 02:55 AM']but only God knows.[/quote]

That's what I said.

[mortify]

[quote name='XIX' post='1539719' date='May 24 2008, 02:55 AM']Fortunately/unfortunately, we are not soul readers. At least I don't think anyone on Phatmass is a soul reader. We can speculate until we are blue in the face, but only God knows.

Far be it for me to say that because one is an atheist, that he's also in mortal sin.
Also far me it for me to ever, ever, under any circumstance, give some sort of "canonization eulogy." I'm not trying to be an optimist here, I'm just saying that speculation about the souls of others won't really lead to any definitive conclusions.[/quote]

I'm not saying every atheist goes to hell but isn't it a mortal sin to knowingly and willingly reject God's existence? This isn't passing judgment on the fate of certain souls, but it is recognizing certain actions that harm our spiritual life.

[Deb]

I think that those who deny God here on earth go to hell. It is one thing to not believe because you have not been taught or to doubt, God will look into your heart. If you deny him and vehemently, I think you are a goner. Just my opinion as of course, nobody can know.

[Pontifex]

Purgatory is the place between the judgement seat of Christ and the beatific vision. I say this because some of our Protestant brothers and sisters seem to believe that we have a second chance theology. This is absolutely not true and never has been. We believe that the will is fixed after death and so we share the protestant view of two directions when you die. (Heaven & Hell)

For the faithful it is a time of purification before complete union with God in all of his glory. Catholic theology, which has a very healthy view of the human person, sees humanity as fundamentally good but tainted by sin. We are not snow covered dung heaps as Luther would state. We are not evil creatures that are covered over by Jesus and get a free pass straight into Heaven because the Father sees that like being camoflauged. The redemption of Jesus is incarnational. It is a redemption that starts from within and purifies us throughout our faith life, until we are unified completely with the Trinue God. (Notice that this does nothing to deemphasize salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.)s

Purgation has begun here on this earth. All the sufferings that we endure and all the sacrifices that we make now, all the graces that receive are part of that process. The burning of purgatory comes from the longing that we have to be in union with God. It is NOT the flames of hell.

Blessings,

Fr. Pontifex

[mortify]

Thank you Fr, that was an excellent explanation. I'd just like to comment on one thing you said:

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1540007' date='May 24 2008, 10:55 AM']The burning of purgatory comes from the longing that we have to be in union with God. It is NOT the flames of hell.[/quote]

From my poor understanding of what I have read of theology, the fire in purgatory is a real fire, though not an earthly one, and it is the same fire that is in Hell.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='StColette' post='1538529' date='May 23 2008, 05:17 PM']You're correct Red . The souls in purgatory, the Church Suffering, can intercede for the souls on earth, the Church Militant, but they can not pray for themselves. The Church Triumphant, the souls in Heaven, can pray for the Church Militant and Church Suffering. And the Church Militant can and should pray for the Church Suffering and can ask intercession from the Church Triumphant.[/quote]


Thanks!

[CatherineM]

I dad used to joke that he didn't mind the idea of purgatory since he figured all his friends would be there.

[thessalonian]

Do not take non-responses to some as NO. For instance we can not know whether the duration of purgatory is long or short because it is outside of time and space. It may be of short duration, even instantaneous but varying in intensity, which makes it seem long.

Protestants should believe in purgatory as they have no theology that handles the problem that sanctification is not guaranteed to be complete at the end of life. Their biases toward purgatory and distortions of it keep them from drawing a rational conclusion on the matter.

[Alycin]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1540609' date='May 24 2008, 05:29 PM']Do not take non-responses to some as NO. For instance we can not know whether the duration of purgatory is long or short because it is outside of time and space. It may be of short duration, even instantaneous but varying in intensity, which makes it seem long.

Protestants should believe in purgatory as they have no theology that handles the problem that sanctification is not guaranteed to be complete at the end of life. Their biases toward purgatory and distortions of it keep them from drawing a rational conclusion on the matter.[/quote]


Most protestants that completely rule out purgatory do so because they are "bible Christians" that like to go to scripture for everything but don't have Church teaching to help explain the scriptures. One of the most influential people in my faith journey is such a person and she explains her lack of belief in purgatory somewhere in her blog. I'll have to find it.

[Alycin]

[quote]but scripture does not support the idea of a “soul sleep”. in fact, truth tells us that at the moment of death our soul goes immediately into the presence of the lord. Paul says in 2 corinthians 5:8 that to be away from the body is to be at home with God and also that to depart and be with christ is far better (phil 1:23).

so i dont know, i thought it was interesting and i wanted to look into it. i dont believe in any sort of soul sleep or purgatory, but rather that as believers we will be in the presence of the lord immediately following our death.[/quote]

[url="http://djandcourtney.wordpress.com/2007/10/27/the-comma-debate/"]from this blog post[/url]

[thessalonian]

I appreciate your post. Here is an expansion of my point that protestants should believe in purgatory.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=78655"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=78655[/url]

The belief that it is unbilbical is a false one based on an explicitness that they themselves can't measure up to with many of their teachings. Many passages point to purgatory, among them 1 Cor 3:15.

[CatherineM]

Don't the Jews believe in Purgatory.

[Pontifex]

[quote name='mortify' post='1540067' date='May 24 2008, 12:44 PM']Thank you Fr, that was an excellent explanation. I'd just like to comment on one thing you said:
From my poor understanding of what I have read of theology, the fire in purgatory is a real fire, though not an earthly one, and it is the same fire that is in Hell.[/quote]


Thank you. Also thanks for bringing that up. I really do not know how the flames of purgatory could be the flames of hell. First of all, let us assume that the whole concept of fire is a metaphor to begin with. Fire is seen as both a good and a bad in the Bible. By my basic premise that purgatory is that place between the judgement seat of Christ and the beatific vision it would seem really out of place for the fire to be hell fire. Hell is the furthest point away from God, Thomistically speaking. I don't think God would allow the flames of hell to touch his sons and daughters. IMO

I am of the school of Fr. Benedict Groeschel on this one, the fire results from the realization of what we shall be, but not being able to obtain it yet. It makes sense to me.

[mortify]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1541293' date='May 25 2008, 12:11 AM']Thank you. Also thanks for bringing that up. I really do not know how the flames of purgatory could be the flames of hell. First of all, let us assume that the whole concept of fire is a metaphor to begin with. Fire is seen as both a good and a bad in the Bible. By my basic premise that purgatory is that place between the judgement seat of Christ and the beatific vision it would seem really out of place for the fire to be hell fire. Hell is the furthest point away from God, Thomistically speaking. I don't think God would allow the flames of hell to touch his sons and daughters. IMO

I am of the school of Fr. Benedict Groeschel on this one, the fire results from the realization of what we shall be, but not being able to obtain it yet. It makes sense to me.[/quote]

As far as I understand the Church has never dogmatically proclaimed the literal fire of purgatory even though it is a teaching of many Fathers (I think all Latin and some Eastern), scholastics, and theologians. I think this may be because the Council of Florence sought reunification with the Greeks who did not accept the flames of purgatory, but God knows best.

As for the location St Thomas says ([url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm"][u]Link to Summa[/u][/url]):

[color="#0000FF"]"I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the (private) revelations made to many, that [b]there is a twofold place of Purgatory[/b]. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is [b]the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory[/b]; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.

"Some say, however, that according to the common law the place of Purgatory is where man sins. This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law they are punished above us, because they are between us and God, as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin. [/color]

Even if this is not the case, the LEAST pain of purgatory is greater than the worst torment on earth.

Edited May 25, 2008 by mortify