Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='reyb' post='1710545' date='Nov 25 2008, 07:21 AM'][indent]Are you really ready to discuss this subject?

...

In reference to 1 Cor 3:10-15

[color="#FF0000"]10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire , and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. [/color]
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But what is that ‘Day’ and ‘Fire’ in 1 Cor 3:10-15? Don't you know that in baptism (if it is genuine) our sin are forgiven as it is written in Luke 3:16? In short, in baptism our sin are 'purge'. Why then you need another 'cleasing or scrubbing'?. Is the blood of Jesus not enough?

Again, are you ready?

Let us start in [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp[/url] titled ‘Is Purgatory Found in the Bible? By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell.

[/indent][/quote]

I feel that I am ready? Why do you question my readiness? Did I say something wrong? If I did please let me know as I would appreciate it.

As for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, what else should we take 'day' and 'fire' to be? The passage seems to be explaining purgatory. The 'day' is probably our death day when we will judgment day and the fire is the cleansing of purgatory.

Do you take something different from this passage and if so why?


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[quote name='reyb' post='1710850' date='Nov 25 2008, 03:35 PM'][indent]...

The Doctrine of Purgatory is a product of man’s cleverness since the beginning of time in order to justify the righteousness of God in his own way. This doctrine is not based on God’s righteousness but rather on man’s inability to understand its mystery and thus, create his own idea of God’s righteousness in accordance to his faith and interpretation to the scripture.

As it is written in Rom 10:3-9

[color="#FF0000"]3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness . 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.[/color]NIV


And also in Rom 1:16-17

[color="#FF0000"]16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[/color]NIV

That is why I asked, Is the blood of Jesus not enough? [/indent][/quote]

That's great, however that's not the whole story of the bible that you just accept Jesus and then walk around with a pass to heaven already guaranteed.

If I may point out, are you sure you are reading these passages in context and do these verses you point out really say what you think they say?




[quote]This is my stand in our issue - the Doctrine of Purgatory is a product of man’s cleverness since the beginning of time in order to justify the righteousness of God in his own way. This doctrine is not based on God’s righteousness but rather on man’s inability to understand its mystery and thus, create his own idea of God’s righteousness in accordance to his faith and interpretation to the scripture. The Catechism states ‘The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:’[/quote]


I provided evidence to support purgatory. If you can show my why this evidence is insufficient or is being interpreted incorrectly, then we can move on.

What do you think of sola fide and why?

Edited November 26, 2008 by eagle_eye222001

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1711097' date='Nov 25 2008, 09:15 PM']I feel that I am ready? Why do you question my readiness? Did I say something wrong? If I did please let me know as I would appreciate it.

[color="#0000FF"]As for 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, what else should we take 'day' and 'fire' to be? The passage seems to be explaining purgatory. The 'day' is probably our death day when we will judgment day and the fire is the cleansing of purgatory.

Do you take something different from this passage and if so why?[/color]

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That's great, however that's not the whole story of the bible that you just accept Jesus and then walk around with a pass to heaven already guaranteed.

If I may point out, are you sure you are reading these passages in context and do these verses you point out really say what you think they say?







I provided evidence to support purgatory. If you can show my why this evidence is insufficient or is being interpreted incorrectly, then we can move on.

What do you think of sola fide and why?[/quote]

[indent]1 Cor 3:10-15 does not speak of your definition of Purgatory. Apostle Paul is referring to Baptism in Holy Spirit with fire as it is written in Matt 3:11-12, Mark 1:8ff, Luke 3:16ff.

Apostle Paul’s testimony is referring to this ‘coming’. This is the reason why I asked you ‘[post="1710545"]Don’t you know that in baptism (if it is genuine) our sins are forgiven or ‘purge’.[/post]

[indent]It is written,[/indent]
11 [color="#FF0000"]"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." [/color]NIV

Take Note: That Day is referring to Lord’s day and Fire in the above verses.

Thus, I said 1 Cor 3:10ff is not referring to your doctrine of Purgatory although ‘Purge’ means ‘cleanse by fire’.[/indent]