Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1710425' date='Nov 25 2008, 03:35 AM']So from 1 John 3:4-6, we see that when we live in Christ, we do not sin. [color="#0000FF"]However, we can still choose to sin,[/color] and when we sin, we are not living in Christ. Do you agree with this? The passage here does not say that we cannot sin period. It says that in him there is no sin and when we live in him, we do not sin. However, we can leave Christ and that is where sin is.[/quote]

[indent]I will say it again…

While the writer of 1 John says as if he is warning us that if our anointing is real and not counterfeit, ‘ [color="#FF0000"]No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God[/color]. Now, you are telling me a totally different view because you said ‘[color="#0000FF"]However, we can still choose to sin’[/color]

Where in the above verses that those who are born of God can still choose to sin?[/indent]

Edited November 25, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1710425' date='Nov 25 2008, 03:35 AM']The passage in John 10:27-30 basically is saying that the followers of Christ shall have eternal life and shall not die and that they shall not be snatched. [color="#0000FF"]However, when we decide to not follow Christ (sinning[/color]), we separate ourselves from God and then we are not a follower with the package deal of eternal life.

[color="#0000FF"]I would say we can go against God's will..[/color] God gives us a choice. Believe in Christ or not[/quote]

[indent]Again you see it differently, While John 10:27-30 says …[color="#FF0000"]’no one can snatch them out of my hand (Jesus said) and …. no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand[/color].’ But still you said ‘[color="#0000FF"]However, when we decide (to) not to follow Christ’ [/color]--meaning, you have the power to snatch yourself out of Jesus and/or of God’s hand-- and ‘[color="#0000FF"]I would say, we can go against God’s will’[/color]- Are you saying that our will is greater than the power of God? [/indent]

Edited November 25, 2008 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1710478' date='Nov 25 2008, 04:54 AM']--------------------------
[indent]Okay let us discuss your suppose to be strong case...
First, are the above [b]principles the[/b] official stand of the Roman Catholic Church regarding our sujbect discussion? (I just want to know)[/indent][/quote]

[indent]sorry typo error.[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1710432' date='Nov 25 2008, 03:43 AM']So you seem to be asking for evidence for this supposed "invention," correct?


Look on page 7 of this debate thread and post #137.

Also Catholic Answers has some stuff on it that you should find interesting. They provide explanations of the Catholic position along with Bible passages.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp[/url]

If you have any questions after looking at these arguments for Purgatory, feel free to post them, and I or someone else will be by to answer.[/quote]

[indent]Are you really ready to discuss this subject?

This is my stand in our issue - the Doctrine of Purgatory is a product of man’s cleverness since the beginning of time in order to justify the righteousness of God in his own way. This doctrine is not based on God’s righteousness but rather on man’s inability to understand its mystery and thus, create his own idea of God’s righteousness in accordance to his faith and interpretation to the scripture. The Catechism states ‘The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:’

In reference to 1 Cor 3:10-15

[color="#FF0000"]10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire , and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. [/color]
-------------------------------
But what is that ‘Day’ and ‘Fire’ in 1 Cor 3:10-15? Don't you know that in baptism (if it is genuine) our sin are forgiven as it is written in Luke 3:16? In short, in baptism our sin are 'purge'. Why then you need another 'cleasing or scrubbing'?. Is the blood of Jesus not enough?

Again, are you ready?

Let us start in [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp[/url] titled ‘Is Purgatory Found in the Bible? By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell.

[/indent]

[Didacus]

Purgatory purgatory purgatory...

[reyb]

[indent]Do not Because when you die they will pray for you. (I am sure). But the problem is how long will you to the door. Who will believe me anyway? [/indent]

[Didacus]

[quote name='reyb' post='1710586' date='Nov 25 2008, 09:08 AM'][indent]Do not Because when you die they will pray for you. (I am sure). But the problem is how long will you to the door. Who will believe me anyway? [/indent][/quote]

I weep for the sins I have committed which I truly regret, knowing forgiveness cannot be enough.

I know joy is at the end of the line, I see your point. But our pains must be lived fully, emtional intellectual and physical, before opening the final door.

[reyb]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1710598' date='Nov 25 2008, 09:37 AM']I weep for the sins I have committed which I truly regret, knowing forgiveness cannot be enough.

I know joy is at the end of the line, I see your point. But our pains must be lived fully, emtional intellectual and physical, before opening the final door.[/quote]

[indent]It is written, [color="#FF0000"]Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door ! [/color][/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1709527' date='Nov 24 2008, 12:51 PM'][indent]While the writer of 1 John says as if he is warning us that if our anointing is real and not counterfeit, ‘[color="#FF0000"] No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God[/color]. Now, you are telling me a totally different view because you said ‘we still commit sins even if we are born again’.

He even said in previous paragraph that (1 John 3:4-6)

[color="#FF0000"]Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. [/color]

Again, if our anointing is real and not counterfeit how can we reconcile our subject discussion in John 10:27-30?

[color="#FF0000"]27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." [/color] [/indent]

[indent]Are we greater than God that we can go against his will?[/indent][/quote]

So you think Christians should not commit any sins, ever?

Read pretty much anything else in Scripture. Is Paul contradicting the writer of 1 John when he writes about doing the things he doesn't want and not doing the things he wants to do as a follower of Christ? I don't have the right words to explain 1 John, but it's basically the difference between being unbaptized and baptized: through Baptism, we are born from above, and thus gain power over sin and death. 1 John is speaking from more of a "high level" view of things, to basically give us a vision of what we are capable of in this life by God's grace, and the freedom from sin that will be realized through our natural death when we finally come home to the new creation.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1710507' date='Nov 25 2008, 05:47 AM']Where in the above verses that those who are born of God can still choose to sin?[/indent][/quote]

I thought [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80542&view=findpost&p=1710425"]eagleeye[/url] answered this one.

[quote name='reyb' post='1710525' date='Nov 25 2008, 06:16 AM'][indent]Again you see it differently, While John 10:27-30 says …[color="#FF0000"]’no one can snatch them out of my hand (Jesus said) and …. no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand[/color].’ But still you said ‘[color="#0000FF"]However, when we decide (to) not to follow Christ’ [/color]--meaning, you have the power to snatch yourself out of Jesus and/or of God’s hand-- and ‘[color="#0000FF"]I would say, we can go against God’s will’[/color]- Are you saying that our will is greater than the power of God? [/indent][/quote]

God's power does not overrule God's love, which invites us into relationship with Him, and inherent in that invitation is our freedom to accept or reject it. Free will is a necessary condition for love to exist.

[Didacus]

[quote name='reyb' post='1710605' date='Nov 25 2008, 10:02 AM'][indent]It is written, [color="#FF0000"]Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door ! [/color][/indent][/quote]

Thank you.

[mortify]

First, let me say I am not a theologian

To grasp purgatory you have to grasp a lot of other things first.

First you have to understand that God is Just. What this really means is that God is Holy, He loves what is right and good, so when someone sins they tip the balance of Justice and God desires to set things right. Setting things right may include punishing you via some trial but you can also help set things right through penance (prayer, fasting, alms giving.)

Now maybe we should talk a bit about penance. Penance means being sorry for one's sin, a desire to turn away from sin, seeking absolution, *and* atoning for sin. Atoning for sin is when we offer prayer, fasting, alms giving, or even willful acceptance of suffering for our sins. It's how we can "set the scale" right. Just to avoid any confusion, I want to make it absolutely clear that we do not believe that someone can earn God's forgiveness, as if fasting could win absolution! No, to understand this we have to distinguish forgiveness from punishment.

It is wrong to think that when God forgives us that means the punishment that we deserve is always and completely taken away. Forgiveness restores our friendship with God, but the scale was still tipped by our sin and needs to be set right! An example of this is [b]2 Samuel 12:13-14[/b].


With all this in mind... let say someone sins, but they are repentant and God forgives them. However, they die before they get to atone for their sin! So what happens? They die in the friendship of God but they still have to right their wrongs. Does God just ignore it? No, because God is Holy and He loves what is Good and Right, He *can't* just ignore it. Does the person go to hell? No, because they died forgiven. Do they go to heaven? No, because they still have to atone! So where do they go?

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1710617' date='Nov 25 2008, 11:13 AM']So you think Christians should not commit any sins, ever?

Read pretty much anything else in Scripture. Is Paul contradicting the writer of 1 John when he writes about doing the things he doesn't want and not doing the things he wants to do as a follower of Christ? I don't have the right words to explain 1 John, but it's basically the difference between being unbaptized and baptized: through Baptism, we are born from above, and thus gain power over sin and death. 1 John is speaking from more of a "high level" view of things, to basically give us a vision of what we are capable of in this life by God's grace, and the freedom from sin that will be realized through our natural death when we finally come home to the new creation.[/quote]

[indent]I think you are referring to Apostle Paul's testimony in Rom 7:14-20

[color="#FF0000"]14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do — this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. [/color][/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' post='1710709' date='Nov 25 2008, 12:56 PM']First, let me say I am not a theologian

To grasp purgatory you have to grasp a lot of other things first.

First you have to understand that God is Just. What this really means is that God is Holy, He loves what is right and good, so when someone sins they tip the balance of Justice and God desires to set things right. Setting things right may include punishing you via some trial but you can also help set things right through penance (prayer, fasting, alms giving.)

Now maybe we should talk a bit about penance. Penance means being sorry for one's sin, a desire to turn away from sin, seeking absolution, *and* atoning for sin. Atoning for sin is when we offer prayer, fasting, alms giving, or even willful acceptance of suffering for our sins. It's how we can "set the scale" right. Just to avoid any confusion, I want to make it absolutely clear that we do not believe that someone can earn God's forgiveness, as if fasting could win absolution! No, to understand this we have to distinguish forgiveness from punishment.

It is wrong to think that when God forgives us that means the punishment that we deserve is always and completely taken away. Forgiveness restores our friendship with God, but the scale was still tipped by our sin and needs to be set right! An example of this is [b]2 Samuel 12:13-14[/b].


[color="#0000FF"]With all this in mind... let say someone sins, but they are repentant and God forgives them. However, they die before they get to atone for their sin! So what happens? They die in the friendship of God but they still have to right their wrongs. Does God just ignore it? No, because God is Holy and He loves what is Good and Right, He *can't* just ignore it. Does the person go to hell? No, because they died forgiven. Do they go to heaven? No, because they still have to atone! So where do they go?[/color][/quote]

[indent]The above argument is the reason why I said…

The Doctrine of Purgatory is a product of man’s cleverness since the beginning of time in order to justify the righteousness of God in his own way. This doctrine is not based on God’s righteousness but rather on man’s inability to understand its mystery and thus, create his own idea of God’s righteousness in accordance to his faith and interpretation to the scripture.

As it is written in Rom 10:3-9

[color="#FF0000"]3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness . 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.[/color]NIV

And also in Rom 1:16-17

[color="#FF0000"]16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[/color]NIV

That is why I asked, Is the blood of Jesus not enough? [/indent]

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' post='1710850' date='Nov 25 2008, 04:35 PM']The Doctrine of Purgatory is a product of man’s cleverness since the beginning of time in order to justify the righteousness of God in his own way. This doctrine is not based on God’s righteousness but rather on man’s inability to understand its mystery and thus, create his own idea of God’s righteousness in accordance to his faith and interpretation to the scripture.[/quote]

This dogma is part of the Deposit of Faith.

[b][color="#0000FF"]"If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." [/color][/b]
[b]1 Corinthians 3: 14-15
[/b]
[quote]That is why I asked, Is the blood of Jesus not enough?[/quote]

The Blood forgives but it doesn't mean we wont be punished for our sins!