Are Teachers Overpaid?

[Altari]

I got into this debate with a "former teacher".

I live in Northern Illinois. Teachers are LUDICROUSLY overpaid around here. My public school English teacher from senior year (who was one of the worst teachers I ever had) is paid more than $60,000. The local school district "administrator" is paid a whopping $170K per year (more than our governor). One Superintendent in our state is paid nearly [b]$360,000[/b] per year (as much as our governor and the mayor of Chicago combined).

The thing that angers Illinoisans most about this is that 80% of our property taxes go to these ridiculous salaries. Aside from the fact that property tax is a recurring consumption tax, and that new owners often have to pay the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid by former owners (usually resulting from "clerical" errors), public schools spent somewhere between 1.5 and 3 times the amount that private schools spend per student (while still offering a substandard education). My Catholic high school managed to educate each student for $5,000 per year - public schools in the same district cite $10,000 as their average cost per student.

So questions, in addition to the polls

1) What state are you in?
2) How are your public schools funded?
3) Do your public schools offer quality education?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

Despite the fact I don't know anything on this topic, I think they are not over funded!

They should be highly rewarded by this world order to teach our children that they are gods who can take over all the things God should only be involved in!

[Archaeology cat]

I guess it depends a lot on the state. I taught in FL for a couple of years, and no, we were not overpaid. At all. I made just over $30,000/year (only income we had); I forget what the cap was, but I think somewhere around $60,000 (the cap being for those who have taught for at least 15 years & have their MA, I believe). A lot of the teachers I worked with had different summer jobs or went to paid workshops to supplement the salary a bit. Had I stayed in FL, I was moving to a Catholic school. Despite the pay cut, I thought it was worth it to not have to put with all the croutons of testing the kids every week in addition to the state testing. That being said, some of the public schools there did offer quality education. And if you chose to move one district over, you didn't have to put up with quite as much. So I don't really think there's an answer that fits every district even, let alone every state.

[CatherineM]

I do think that some supers are overpaid, but I've never lived where teachers were. Oklahoma and Florida were usually in the bottom 10 states. As far as I know their salaries come out of property taxes. Some in Florida came from the lottery. Here in Edmonton it is also property taxes, but what is really cool is that we can designate with the city that our property taxes go to the Catholic school system instead of public school. My dad would have loved that. He hated that his property taxes went to pay for the neighbor kids' schooling, but we still had to pay tuition to parochial school too.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1537186' date='May 22 2008, 03:48 PM']Here in Edmonton it is also property taxes, but what is really cool is that we can designate with the city that our property taxes go to the Catholic school system instead of public school. My dad would have loved that. He hated that his property taxes went to pay for the neighbor kids' schooling, but we still had to pay tuition to parochial school too.[/quote]
That is nice. Here the faith schools receive government funding as well (they're still funded by the diocese, but the state pitches in, too), so the taxes support all the schools (except for private ones). So, provided we stay here, we won't pay extra tuition for a Catholic school.

Oh, and yes, the lotto does play a part. I know it did in KY, at least.

[kujo]

No way.

Nurses, teachers, fire-fighteres, police officers, EMTs...they are all vastly underpaid for the service they give us. Meanwhile, Paris Hilton, Flava Flav and their kind pour our $1000 champagne, drive $40,000 cars, live in multi-million dollar houses and do nothing but offer us something to look at.

Sad...

[Brother Adam]

Catholic school teachers here make $20,000 a year and get a $150 raise a year for 4 years, whence it is capped. Administrators make little more. No, they are not overpaid. Public school teachers start just under 30k and with a BA and no extra work (like coaching) usually only end up making about 34.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]They should be highly rewarded by this world order to teach our children that they are gods who can take over all the things God should only be involved in![/quote]

something tells me, he's making this simple and unrelated subject into a battleground for eugenics, against some nebulus person who is for anything goes eugenics. and then, likely start going off on how evolution and its followers are evil. and then top off his argument, by cryptically mentioning that he'd be dead a few months ago had it not been for God.

Edited May 22, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Kitty]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1537171' date='May 22 2008, 10:36 AM']They should be highly rewarded by this world order to teach our children that they are gods who can take over all the things God should only be involved in![/quote]

What?

[kujo]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1537171' date='May 22 2008, 11:36 AM']Despite the fact I don't know anything on this topic, I think they are not over funded!

They should be highly rewarded by this world order to teach our children that they are gods who can take over all the things God should only be involved in![/quote]

[Veridicus]

Altari that sounds like a localized problem. It seems like where I sit in Southwestern Indiana its practically a running stereotype that teachers and administration are underappreciated and underpaid. Plus, on top of that it is ludicrously difficult just to get hired into the Vanderburgh County public school system because of nepotism and politics.

Yeah...its funny because people always complain about how expensive private schooling is...but the reailty is that it is less expensive on average per student. I think that is just part of the inevitable fact that introduction of government oversight necessarily implies fiscal irresponsibility and waste. The government (on any level) just can't manage money effectively. Besides, I think on [i]average [/i]parents who send their kids to private schools keep better track of their kids' education because of the serious monetary investment out of their pockets (I'm not trying to say public school parents don't care...so please no one quote me in a reply trying to argue otherwise).

I think some of our public schools in this part of the state offer quality education for above-average students. I know that on the west side of Evansville...there are 2 school: Mater Dei (Catholic...OBVIOUSLY!...haha) and Reitz Memorial. I think it is overwhelmingly understood that Mater Dei is the better school (with something like 95% or higher completing college schooling after high school graduation). The same thing is true for the East-side Catholic High School...they're students have a phenomenal success rate. Again though I wonder how much of this is differential parenting and fiscal imput. Regardless, there are other public schools in and around the city that offer very good programs for advanced students and have WAY more in terms of AP coursework (college credit transferrable) than the private schools.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Veridicus

[Altari]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1537417' date='May 22 2008, 02:07 PM']Altari that sounds like a localized problem.[/quote]
That was kind of what I was assuming going into this. The thread solidified the idea, though. It just reminds me how important local government is. When we try to come to any common ground on a national level, it's always influenced by local feelings.

[quote]Yeah...its funny because people always complain about how expensive private schooling is...but the reailty is that it is less expensive on average per student. I think that is just part of the inevitable fact that introduction of government oversight necessarily implies fiscal irresponsibility and waste. The government (on any level) just can't manage money effectively.[/quote]
Careful, you wouldn't want to suggest that private institutions handle money better than the federales.

[quote]Again though I wonder how much of this is differential parenting and fiscal imput. Regardless, there are other public schools in and around the city that offer very good programs for advanced students and have WAY more in terms of AP coursework (college credit transferrable) than the private schools.[/quote]
I hear that first argument from the public school teachers a lot. That the private schools take all the "good" students and leave the "bad" students for the public schools. Having gone to both, I don't really believe that, though. There were plenty of dumb kids in private school - they were just pushed beyond their limits by teachers who weren't hampered by bureaucracy.

[kujo]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1537417' date='May 22 2008, 03:07 PM']The government (on any level) just can't manage money effectively.[/quote]

Amen to that!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Altari' post='1537166' date='May 22 2008, 11:31 AM']I got into this debate with a "former teacher".

I live in Northern Illinois. Teachers are LUDICROUSLY overpaid around here. My public school English teacher from senior year (who was one of the worst teachers I ever had) is paid more than $60,000. The local school district "administrator" is paid a whopping $170K per year (more than our governor). One Superintendent in our state is paid nearly [b]$360,000[/b] per year (as much as our governor and the mayor of Chicago combined).

The thing that angers Illinoisans most about this is that 80% of our property taxes go to these ridiculous salaries. Aside from the fact that property tax is a recurring consumption tax, and that new owners often have to pay the difference between taxes owed and taxes paid by former owners (usually resulting from "clerical" errors), public schools spent somewhere between 1.5 and 3 times the amount that private schools spend per student (while still offering a substandard education). My Catholic high school managed to educate each student for $5,000 per year - public schools in the same district cite $10,000 as their average cost per student.

So questions, in addition to the polls

1) What state are you in?
2) How are your public schools funded?
3) Do your public schools offer quality education?[/quote]

Pa school districts are funded by local municipal taxes, so your education depends on your tax base. Suburban kids receive excellent education, small towns and cities not so much. The state does give many grants and aid to smaller poorer districts. The current challenge here are propel and charter schools which take a per-pupil cost of the district funds for every student they snag. They however provide excellent education , discipline and higher test scores than the public schools.

Our teachers make between $27-64,000 but principals and counselors make over $100-150,000 which is absolutely ridiculous.

To be real specific:
Low income: 45.0%
Attendance rate: 87.78%
Number of students entering this school: 132
Number of students who withdrew from this school: 206
High School graduation rate: 84.9%
HS graduation rate for male students: 80.1%
HS graduation rate for female students: 90.2%
HS graduation rate for white students: 84.9%
HS graduation rate for black students: 85.2%
HS graduation rate for Hispanic students: 50%
HS graduation rate for Asian students: 100%
HS graduation rate for Native American students: 100%
Total number of graduates: 161
Number of graduates intending to pursue non-degree education: 17
Number of graduates intending to join military: 13
Number of graduates intending to go to a degree-granting school: 131


Number of classes with 1 to 20 students: 122
Number of classes with 21 to 23 students: 53
Number of classes with 24 to 26 students: 45
Number of classes with 27 to 29 students: 34
Number of classes with 30 or more students: 28

Percentage of students taking the CEEB AP social science exams: 0.9%
Percentage of students achieving a score of 3 or higher in the CEEB AP social science exam: 33.3%
Percentage of students taking the CEEB AP English exams: 1.2%
Percentage of students achieving a score of 3 or higher in the CEEB AP English exam: 55.6%

Total number of teachers: 96.5
Full-time teachers: 81
Part-time teachers: 2
Teachers in this district with less than bachelor's degree: 0
Teachers in this district with Bachelor's degree: 198
Teachers in this district with Master's degree: 100
Teachers in this district with Doctor's degree: 0
Teachers in district with less than 1 year of experience: 20
Teachers in district with 2-5 years of experience: 71
Teachers in district with 6-10 years of experience: 45
Teachers in district with 11-15 years of experience: 22
Teachers in district with 16-20 years of experience: 14
Teachers in district with 21-25 years of experience: 17
Teachers in district with 26-30 years of experience: 53
Teachers in district with 30-35 years of experience: 52
Teachers in district with over 35 years of experience: 4
Total number of teachers in this district: 298

Administration staff: 6
Other full-time service coordinators: 5
Other part-time service coordinators: 0
High quality teachers percentage: 90.9%
Councelors: 4
Librarians: 1
Other staff: 3

9th grade enrollment : 460
10th grade enrollment : 379
11th grade enrollment : 364
12th grade enrollment : 325

Cost per pupil: $9,651 [from Great Schools site]
Average teacher salary: $48923
Teacher salary range: $27000 - $67464
Average administration staff salary: $74466
Administration staff salary range: $33967 - $121248
Suspensions: 420
Law-enforcement incidents: 27
Library titles: 14900
Library titles checked out during school year: 3000
Computers: 315
CD-ROM titles: 34

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's probably a lot like why CEOs are paid a lot. the main reason, is because you want to retain someone who has an intimate knowledge of the organization and is top quality, cause low salary means a higher turn over and more novice people who don't know much. but, while that might work with CEOs, something tells me that principals don't need that level of sophisticated background on something as simple as a school. maybe there are a lot of techincal and legal things that someone somewhere's gotta know, but if that's the case, there's gotta be a more efficient way of running the system than hiring someone like that at every single public school. i may be wrong, but from what i can tell, i doubt it.