rhetoricfemme Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 I read [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=58524"]this article[/url] at CWN, and it doesn't seem just. For a devout and celibate Catholic, who is also homosexual to be banned from partaking in religious orders seems hypocritical, seeing as all people are sinners. Please correct me if I'm wrong. With celibacy being a part of the pact to become ordained, why should sexual orientation even be a problem? If the reasoning is that it is a sinful thing, what makes it different from other sins? We are all sinners, and in the case of homosexuality, celibacy should act as a barrier between the person and the sin. If it is a matter of people being uncomfortable with their priest or bishops being gay, I can't even imagine a reason that the question of sexual orientation would even be appropriate to bring up. So where exactly is the problem? Please know that I ask only to learn and understand, not to argue for the sake of arguing. -Christina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Rome has spoken the matter is closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhetoricfemme Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1535539' date='May 20 2008, 08:56 PM']Rome has spoken the matter is closed.[/quote] I'm not asking to start a fight, I'm asking as a non-Catholic trying to understand. Believe me that I will read up on it myself, but I thought this community was about teaching and communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='rhetoricfemme' post='1535530' date='May 20 2008, 11:51 PM']I read [url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=58524"]this article[/url] at CWN, and it doesn't seem just. For a devout and celibate Catholic, who is also homosexual to be banned from partaking in religious orders seems hypocritical, seeing as all people are sinners. Please correct me if I'm wrong. With celibacy being a part of the pact to become ordained, why should sexual orientation even be a problem? If the reasoning is that it is a sinful thing, what makes it different from other sins? We are all sinners, and in the case of homosexuality, celibacy should act as a barrier between the person and the sin. If it is a matter of people being uncomfortable with their priest or bishops being gay, I can't even imagine a reason that the question of sexual orientation would even be appropriate to bring up. So where exactly is the problem? Please know that I ask only to learn and understand, not to argue for the sake of arguing. -Christina.[/quote] Do you really think it a good idea to fill a seminary with people whose objective disorder would be tested on a daily basis by having them live in close proximity with a group of other men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 There was a movie once with Jack Lemon as an older priest hosting a seminarian. Two of his classmates were kicked out after being found together. He asked Jack Lemon what difference it made if they were giving up women or men to become priests. He didn't have a good answer. I don't either. What I do have is faith. My faith has been placed by apostolic succession into the hands of people who are more knowledgeable and in a better position to make these decisions for us all. I'm often glad that I don't have to make these kinds of decisions. Allowing myself obedience is freeing. If they say no on gay seminarians, then it isn't my place to question, and I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1535549' date='May 20 2008, 11:02 PM']Do you really think it a good idea to fill a seminary with people whose objective disorder would be tested on a daily basis by having them live in close proximity with a group of other men?[/quote] Yeah, that's pretty much the main reason. You have to understand the background behind all this. The last few decades, unfortunately, saw a great deal of underground homosexual activity in seminaries. The Church realizes that it is difficult for men suffering from same-sex attraction to be placed in a situation where they are tempted daily everywhere they go on the seminary grounds, especially when there are often few or no women present to make the environment seem less tempting to them. The Church isn't trying to exclude anyone, the Church is simply trying to keep men, including the celibate, orthodox, holy ones who may nonetheless suffer from same-sex attraction, safe from overwhelming temptation. By the way, the Church would do the same to heterosexual men if seminaries were run out of convents. It's simply a matter of keeping people away from their temptations, for the good of souls and for the good of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Pedophiles were more than once protected by homosexual clergy afraid of being outed. That's reason enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhetoricfemme Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1535549' date='May 20 2008, 09:02 PM']Do you really think it a good idea to fill a seminary with people whose objective disorder would be tested on a daily basis by having them live in close proximity with a group of other men?[/quote] I hadn't considered that. I can see that being a valid argument, but ultimately, I would hope that the individual in question would be able demonstrate self-control in all areas of life, especially where sexual temptation is concerned, and if he thinks he is incapable of doing so, then he should reconsider whether or not the seminary is his calling. I can think of an example in Father Mychal Judge, who died on during the September 11 attacks. He was priest who happened to be gay, but that did not get in the way of his serving the Lord. He loved and served unabashedly and indiscriminately from his ordination in 1961, up until his death on 9/11, where he died while giving Last Rites to another victim. His orientation wasn't even known but by very few people until after his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhetoricfemme Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1535562' date='May 20 2008, 09:11 PM']By the way, the Church would do the same to heterosexual men if seminaries were run out of convents. It's simply a matter of keeping people away from their temptations, for the good of souls and for the good of the Church.[/quote] That makes sense. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='rhetoricfemme' post='1535545' date='May 20 2008, 09:59 PM']I'm not asking to start a fight, I'm asking as a non-Catholic trying to understand. Believe me that I will read up on it myself, but I thought this community was about teaching and communication.[/quote] I am indeed sorry... when you stated you thought it was unjust for the Vatican to act as it has, did seem like 'fight'n words' I was wrong then. The Vatican is the head of the Church, hence the authority of the Church. What she says goes, what she says is the law. She is correct in her stance. I will leave it to others to show you why she is correct. Here is the actual document btw, [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzioneen.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...ruzione_en.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhetoricfemme Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1535567' date='May 20 2008, 09:14 PM']Pedophiles were more than once protected by homosexual clergy afraid of being outed. That's reason enough.[/quote] I see. I think I might pursue this as a new topic to get well-acquainted with. It's unfortunate that these things happen at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhetoricfemme Posted May 21, 2008 Author Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1535578' date='May 20 2008, 09:19 PM']I am indeed sorry... when you stated you thought it was unjust for the Vatican to act as it has, did seem like 'fight'n words' I was wrong then. The Vatican is the head of the Church, hence the authority of the Church. What she says goes, what she says is the law. She is correct in her stance. I will leave it to others to show you why she is correct. Here is the actual document btw, [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccatheduc/documents/rc_con_ccatheduc_doc_20051104_istruzionen.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...ruzione_en.html[/url][/quote] No worries. Thanks for the link! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 also, please keep in mind the difference between "homosexuality" (which is an oxymoron) and same sex attraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Also much of the Pedophilia crisis was actually more homosexual in nature than it was pedophilia. [url="http://www.catholicleague.org/catalyst.php?year=2006&month=January-February&read=1996"]source [/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1535591' date='May 20 2008, 11:24 PM']Also much of the Pedophilia crisis was actually more homosexual in nature than it was pedophilia. [url="http://www.catholicleague.org/catalyst.php?year=2006&month=January-February&read=1996"]source [/url][/quote] Could the ridiculous "homosexuals are boy molesters" subject be left out of this? That's like saying "all heterosexual men molest girls." BTW, I hat.e the headline of that article. "There never was a pedophilia crisis"? What a flat out lie. There WAS a pedophilia crisis. After all, the priests were not abusing FULL GROWN men, now, were they? Is the Church trying to blame homosexuals for the pedophile priests? [quote]also, please keep in mind the difference between "homosexuality" (which is an oxymoron) and same sex attraction.[/quote] How on earth is homosexuality an oxymoron? Edited May 21, 2008 by Kitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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