Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535928' date='May 21 2008, 06:18 AM']Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so now we're not taking Catechism on face value. That's convenient, isn't it? PM'ers love to throw catechism all around this forum, but when it's thrown to them the answer is "don't take it in isolation". Unbelievable. Just UNBELIEVABLE. The catechism has spoken: God is revealed as Father, yet he has no gender and is pure spirit. Period.[/quote] First of all, I do not "love to throw [the Latin Church's] catechism" around like other Phatmassers; and second of all, I do not believe that isolated texts from the Latin Church's catechism express the Trinitarian faith definitively. Gender is a grammatical construct and Christ spoke of God as Father not mother, and He never referred to the Holy Spirit as mother either. Now, as far as Logos Himself is concerned, He became man (i.e., a concrete existing male individual), and consequently He is spoken of preeminently in masculine terms, which is quite natural. Nevertheless, Christ, because the Church which is His body is referred to as female, can be called in theological discourse "Mother" (cf. Julian of Norwich's "Showings"); although this is not done in liturgical prayer. That said, I really do not see what your problem is with my position. Clearly we disagree, and such is life. Edited May 21, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Cure of Ars' post='1536002' date='May 21 2008, 08:16 AM']Madame, everyone agrees that God is not literally male or female. We speak in metaphors when we speak about God because that is all we really can do. The metaphors in reference to God take the male gender.[/quote] No, not everyone agrees on that. There are several people posting here that have made statements such as "he is male". This is simply not true. When I posted that God is neither male nor female and that he embodies attributes of both male and female, mother and father, someone wrote this was "almost heresy". When I then quoted the Catechism that stated exactly what I had already said, another poster said that quote can't be taken at face value. No, not everyone is agreeing on the basic, fundamental, simple teaching already stated in the Catechism. What we have here is a battle of egos where certain people do not want to admit they were wrong or at least partially wrong, even if it means flat-out ignoring #370 or making excuses for it can't be taken literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535928' date='May 21 2008, 06:18 AM']The catechism has spoken: God is revealed as Father, yet he has no gender and is pure spirit. Period.[/quote] You are confusing "sex" with "gender." The Catechism does not "speak" because it is simply a book, nor does it represent the sum total of Catholic life and practice. Moreover, I gave up the "Sola Scriptura" doctrine when I converrted to Catholicism more than 20 years ago, and I have never embraced the modern "Sola Catechism" idea popular at the present time among Latin Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535921' date='May 21 2008, 06:14 AM']No one is arguing God is Father. Catechism 370: God has no gender, as he is pure spirit.[/quote] The word "gender" does not appear in CCC #370. It says that God, who I hold is properly speaking "the Father," is neither a man nor a woman. On the other hand, the second person of the Holy Trinity became man, and so He is a concrete existing male individual. I refuse to embrace either Docetism or Monophysitism. Edited May 21, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536011' date='May 21 2008, 08:24 AM']First of all, I do not "love to throw [the Latin Church's] catechism" around like other Phatmassers; and second of all, I do not believe that isolated texts from the Latin Church's catechism express the Trinitarian faith definitively. Gender is a grammatical construct and Christ spoke of God as Father not mother, and He never referred to the Holy Spirit as mother either. Now, as far as Logos Himself is concerned, He became man (i.e., a concrete existing male individual), and consequently He is spoken of preeminently in masculine terms, which is quite natural. Nevertheless, Christ, because the Church which is His body is referred to as female, can be called in theological discourse "Mother" (cf. Julian of Norwich's "Showings"); although this is not done in liturgical prayer. That said, I really do not see what your problem is with my position. Clearly we disagree, and such is life.[/quote] That is just it: We DON'T disagree. It is you and others here with your wordiness and your long paragraphs (which often I enjoy reading) carrying on and on repeating the same thing, who are trying to MAKE it LOOK like we disagree. I have made TWO statements--the same two statements--and none of you has YET to prove how these two statements are wrong. You just keep talking and talking, and then ending with "we just have to disagree". The statements I have made are that God is neither male nor female (well, he's ISN'T)...this has nothing to do with the revelation of God as Father which I CLEARLY don't dispute. How could anyone in a clear mind dispute that?? The second statement I made was that God embodies attributes of male and female, and mother and father. Again, how is this wrong? Neither of my statements are wrong, so stop saying "we disagree". My issue is with people saying "God is male" as if he truly had a gender. Every time I dispute the statement "God is male" one of you comes back with "Jesus revealed him as Father" as if I don't believe that! You guys are making something out of nothing and trying to use theology to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cure of Ars Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536017' date='May 21 2008, 08:29 AM']No, not everyone agrees on that. There are several people posting here that have made statements such as "he is male". This is simply not true. When I posted that God is neither male nor female and that he embodies attributes of both male and female, mother and father, someone wrote this was "almost heresy". When I then quoted the Catechism that stated exactly what I had already said, another poster said that quote can't be taken at face value. No, not everyone is agreeing on the basic, fundamental, simple teaching already stated in the Catechism. What we have here is a battle of egos where certain people do not want to admit they were wrong or at least partially wrong, even if it means flat-out ignoring #370 or making excuses for it can't be taken literally.[/quote] I think it more likely that people are talking past each other. Let me ask you a question that I thinks gets to the root. Do you agree that it would be wrong to change the words of the "Our Father" to "Our Mother"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536028' date='May 21 2008, 07:36 AM']That is just it: We DON'T disagree. It is you and others here with your wordiness and your long paragraphs (which often I enjoy reading) carrying on and on repeating the same thing, who are trying to MAKE it LOOK like we disagree. I have made TWO statements--the same two statements--and none of you has YET to prove how these two statements are wrong. You just keep talking and talking, and then ending with "we just have to disagree". The statements I have made are that God is neither male nor female (well, he's ISN'T)...this has nothing to do with the revelation of God as Father which I CLEARLY don't dispute. How could anyone in a clear mind dispute that?? The second statement I made was that God embodies attributes of male and female, and mother and father. Again, how is this wrong? Neither of my statements are wrong, so stop saying "we disagree". My issue is with people saying "God is male" as if he truly had a gender. Every time I dispute the statement "God is male" one of you comes back with "Jesus revealed him as Father" as if I don't believe that! You guys are making something out of nothing and trying to use theology to do so.[/quote] If you think, in all of your wordiness, that God can be called "mother", then we disagree. God is not mother. God is Father, i.e., the Father of the only-begotten Son and processor of the Holy Spirit. Edited May 21, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536028' date='May 21 2008, 07:36 AM']You guys are making something out of nothing and trying to use theology to do so.[/quote] The Church has always held that words are important, and that is why the Fathers fought the Arian, Semi-Arian, and Eunomian heretics over the use of the words "homoousios" and "homoiousios." Words can either express the faith, to the degree that that is possible, or they can corrupt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536041' date='May 21 2008, 08:42 AM']The Church has always held that words are important, and that is why the Fathers fought the Arian, Semi-Arian, and Eunomian heretics over the use of the words "homoousios" and "homoiousios." Words can either express the faith, to the degree that that is possible, or they can corrupt it.[/quote] Whatever, Apotheoun. If you could come down off your high horse on occasion and try thinking and talking like an average human being instead of some kind of theological Superman, you would see more clearly what others are trying to say. And you would see clearly when they are saying the same thing as you are. As it stands you over-analyze and over-critique to the point that others' statements are cast into a doubtful (or even erroneous) light when they are not. It's thoroughly impossible for you to say that someone is right or that you agree with someone...maybe you have done that but I have never seen it in the 2 months I've been in this forum...you always find something to correct. Always. It's as if your brain is in constant over-drive to find error. And you do find it. Even where none exists. I am going to clarify for the last time because I don't want to exit this discussion with any wrong ideas about my orthodoxy. Others may not care but I do. And then I'm done. I do not believe God has a gender, as he is pure spirit. But I believe Jesus revealed him to be as a Father. I also believe he has attributes of male and female (for example, the protecting nature of male and the nurturing nature of female) as evidenced by the fact that we humans are made in his image. I am not some leftist crackpot feminist who wants to make God a woman or who wants to make him nothing because I'm offended by maleness. I love maleness. But God is NOT male and that's the simple fact. We speak of him in the masculine as he was revealed as our Father but also because human language is so limited and we have to speak of him in terms that we are able to express and understand within those limitations. I am NOT okay with people referring to God as "she". I am an orthodox Roman Catholic who has no issues or disagreements with authentic Catholic teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 I don't own a horse, a low or a high one. If you believe that God can be called mother, you are simply wrong. God is Father, because He is Father of the only-begotten Son and processor of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536036' date='May 21 2008, 08:39 AM']If you think, in all of your wordiness, that God can be called "mother", then we disagree. God is not mother. God is Father, i.e., the Father of the only-begotten Son and processor of the Holy Spirit.[/quote] See, this is what you do that makes me soooooooooo angry. [b]You find error where there is none[/b], as I stated in the post above this one. I NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER said that "God can be called Mother". NEVER. How many times have I posted in this thread?? And from those many times you gleaned from me a statement I NEVER MADE. I'm not going to repeat it again, Apotheoun, because I already have numerous times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Being "nurturing" is not a "female attribute." My dad was quite nurturing, and my mom was quite tough. God does not have male and female attributes; instead, human beings have attributes that iconically signify the divine attributes ([i]energeiai[/i]) of the Holy Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536055' date='May 21 2008, 08:59 AM']If you believe that God can be called mother, you are simply wrong.[/quote] WHAT DID I JUST SAY????????????????????? I swear, I'm starting to think you're crazy. Sorry about that, but this is so troubling I don't know what else to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1536058' date='May 21 2008, 09:02 AM']Being "nurturing" is not a "female attribute." My dad was quite nurturing, and my mom was quite tough. God does not have male and female attributes; instead, human beings have attributes that iconically signify the divine attributes ([i]energeiai[/i]) of the Holy Trinity.[/quote] [b]I'm finished with you. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1536059' date='May 21 2008, 08:02 AM']WHAT DID I JUST SAY????????????????????? I swear, I'm starting to think you're crazy. Sorry about that, but this is so troubling I don't know what else to think.[/quote] I simply don't subscribe to the nonsense that you are spouting on this topic, if that makes me crazy, GREAT. Edited May 21, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now