God As Gender Neutral...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1535102' date='May 20 2008, 04:05 PM']"Soyulent Green is people."[/quote]

[Deb]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1534940' date='May 20 2008, 04:07 PM']*sigh*

People like YOU are such a drag. People like YOU are the reason Phatmass regularly starts off with decent exchanges of ideas between intelligent and respectful people and then spirals down into chaos. Because of RUDE, FALSE, and OFFENSIVE statements like you just made. Statements that make people like me very angry and want to lash out.[/quote]


Truthfully, it is people like you, who write like you do above, who can't control anger, who take debates as personal gains or losses, who use caps, exclamation marks and insults to make their points, who make Phatmass at times unpleasant. Unpleasant to be involved with your attacks and unpleasant to witness you attacking others.

Now, it is hard to express most emotions in flat writing but, yours always comes through pretty clear. I am only saying this in hopes that maybe you will go through and read all the threads, see where major angry arguements pop up and assess who always seems to be involved in them.

Being passionate about your opinion or what you perceive to be correct is not always a bad thing unless it is presented in a bad way.

Mir,


Deb

Edited May 20, 2008 by Deb

[Cure of Ars]

It is true that God is not male or female. But in our relationship with God, He is more like a male and is revealed as such. God gives us grace, if we are willing to except this grace, that we give birth to in our lives. This is revealed in scripture and is not something we can just change due to current issues with the battle of the sexes. This does not mean that women and men are not equal in dignity, we just have different roles.

[kujo]

[quote name='Deb' post='1535215' date='May 20 2008, 08:51 PM']Truthfully, it is people like you, who write like you do above, who can't control anger, who take debates as personal gains or losses, who use caps, exclamation marks and insults to make their points, who make Phatmass at times unpleasant. Unpleasant to be involved with your attacks and unpleasant to witness you attacking others.

Now, it is hard to express most emotions in flat writing but, yours always comes through pretty clear. I am only saying this in hopes that maybe you will go through and read all the threads, see where major angry arguements pop up and assess who always seems to be involved in them.

Being passionate about your opinion or what you perceive to be correct is not always a bad thing unless it is presented in a bad way.

Mir,
Deb[/quote]

Very true.

[dominicansoul]

I always thought that man was made in the image of God, i.e. Adam...

woman was made to perfectly compliment man..i.e. Eve...

thus, woman is not necessarily created in the image of God in the same way Adam was created in the image and likeness of God, but woman is made in the image of God [i]through[/i] Adam.

For this reason, I know God is male and should be addressed as such

If this is extremely ridiculous to some of you, please don't hit me!

Edited May 21, 2008 by dominicansoul

[KnightofChrist]

Source [url="http://icatholicism.net/apologetics/radio-replies/rr3-i/rr3q11-13.html"]Radio Replies Volume Three: Personality of God
[/url]
[b]13. When you call God "Father" do you not imply that there is sex in God, and that He is masculine?[/b]

No. The word "Father" is used of God, not to imply that He is of the masculine gender, a quality proper to material bodies, but merely to denote our production by God; and this, not as by some blind mechanical force, but by an intelligent and loving Principle of Being. The word '"Father" is the nearest human expression [u]suitable[/u] for the proportionate truth to be declared. As directly drawn from human beings, of course, the word implies procreation by mutual cooperation between the sexes, and that supposes masculine and feminine. But when applied to God abstraction is made from the mode or process of production, and the sense is restricted to the fact of our production by God, and to the parental dispositions of God towards us. We thus express in our human way a characteristic which is really in God, though not precisely as it is in man. God is truly a Father to us.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1534971' date='May 20 2008, 03:30 PM']Christ reveals the Triune God in masculine terms in the New Testament, and the Church is not free to alter that revealed teaching.

Thus, the first person of the Trinity is Father, the sole source of divinity, and He is called Father because He generates the Son and processes the Holy Spirit. While the second person of the Trinity is the Logos and Son of God, who is eternally begotten of the Father alone, and who becomes man through the incarnation. And finally, the third person of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of Life, the sole source of the Church's sanctity, and of all holiness.

Now, of the three persons of the Trinity only the Son can be thought of as "Mother," for He is the Head of His body, which is the Church, the new mother of all the living, and the union between Christ and His body is so intimate that they form one living Man stretching throughout time.

Ultimately, the Christian tradition identifies God with the masculine gender, and the Church, i.e., the people of God, with the feminine.

The union between God and mankind is -- in the final analysis -- spousal.[/quote]

No one is questioning the Fatherhood of God. But the original question was regarding "gender" of which God clearly has none. The other point was that God has attributes of both mother and father, as confirmed in the catechism.

We seem to be repeating ourselves and each other...some of us.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1535577' date='May 20 2008, 10:18 PM']For this reason, I know God is male and should be addressed as such[/quote]

God is not male, just as he is not female. Please re-read the quoted section from the catechism.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535644' date='May 20 2008, 10:56 PM']God is not male, just as he is not female. Please re-read the quoted section from the catechism.[/quote]


I did read Deb's quote from the Cathechism.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1534971' date='May 20 2008, 03:30 PM']Ultimately, the Christian tradition identifies God with the masculine gender, and the Church, i.e., the people of God, with the feminine.

The union between God and mankind is -- in the final analysis -- spousal.[/quote]


Thank you!

[Veridicus]

I feel like I need to repeat what I stated in a previous post once again: there is a difference between sex and gender. Sex is defined by physicality. Hence we can say that Christ is a male while we cannot say that God the Father is a 'male' being because he doesnt' have a body. However, gender is defined relationally. What is 'masculine' is dependent upon the relationship that exist between the (biologically) male individual and those around him. God the Father's eternal relationship to the son, His relationship to creation, and the language used in the New Testament (all of which Apotheoun mentioned) all reveal God's essentially masculine characteristics. This does not mean that God the Father 'lacks' feminine characteristics (as if He could somehow be limited by masculine gender), it just means that in divine revelation He seems to have chosen to reveal Himself through masculinity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535637' date='May 20 2008, 09:54 PM']No one is questioning the Fatherhood of God. But the original question was regarding "gender" of which God clearly has none. The other point was that God has attributes of both mother and father, as confirmed in the catechism.

We seem to be repeating ourselves and each other...some of us.[/quote]
I disagree, because God -- based upon scripture, tradition, and the writings of the patristic authors -- has gender, and He is revealed as Father. While our Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Logos and Son of God, due to His connection with the Church, can be said to be -- at least in reference to the people of God -- "Mother." That said, as an Eastern Christian I hold that it is absolutely contrary to the Triadological tradition of the Church to identify God the Father with feminine gender, remembering that gender is a linguistic category, because in the doctrine of the Byzantine Fathers, and the Cappadocians in particular, God is always Father, and so I refuse to confuse the abstract notion of "God" with the divinely revealed doctrine of the Christian faith. I do not worship an abstract notion; instead, I worship the three persons of the Trinity. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that in essence the Trinity is beyond being, and so nothing can be attributed essentially to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; while hypostatically Fatherhood, Sonship, and Spiritual Holiness can be attributed to each person distinctly as their [i]tropos hyparxeos[/i].

In other words, the Trinity of persons has gender, and their gender is revealed in both scripture and tradition in masculine terms. The Father is the Father of the only-begotten Son and sole origin of the Spirit; whereas the Spirit is the breath of the Father and the Son, and the source of sanctification and life; while the Son, due to the incarnation, has both gender and sex, i.e., He is Son within the Trinity, and as Son of the Father -- due to His intimate connection with His body -- He can even be seen as "Mother", but again this is only applicable when referring to the Church, which is the perpetual extension of His incarnation throughout time.

Thus, I have no qualms in saying that God is not mother, but is in fact Father, i.e., the Father of the Son and of all creation, and the processor of the Spirit. While our Lord Jesus Christ is Son, Brother, Bridegroom, and -- in relation to His body the Church -- Mother, because Christ and the Church are one mystical Man. And finally, the Holy Spirit is giver of life, Spouse of the Holy Theotokos, and source of sanctity to the Church and to all of creation, because His energy glorifies the Son, while simultaneously permeating created reality.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1535805' date='May 21 2008, 12:55 AM']I disagree, because God -- based upon scripture, tradition, and the writings of the patristic authors -- has gender, and He is revealed as Father.[/quote]

No one is arguing God is Father. Catechism 370: God has no gender, as he is pure spirit.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1534978' date='May 20 2008, 03:34 PM']One must be careful when quoting CCC #370 that he does not take it in isolation, because through the incarnation God truly, and not in mere appearance, became man (i.e., a concretely existing male individual).[/quote]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so now we're not taking Catechism on face value. That's convenient, isn't it? PM'ers love to throw catechism all around this forum, but when it's thrown to them the answer is "don't take it in isolation". Unbelievable. Just UNBELIEVABLE.

The catechism has spoken: God is revealed as Father, yet he has no gender and is pure spirit. Period.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1535928' date='May 21 2008, 07:18 AM']Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so now we're not taking Catechism on face value. That's convenient, isn't it? PM'ers love to throw catechism all around this forum, but when it's thrown to them the answer is "don't take it in isolation". Unbelievable. Just UNBELIEVABLE.

The catechism has spoken: God is revealed as Father, yet he has no gender and is pure spirit. Period.[/quote]


Madame, everyone agrees that God is not literally male or female. We speak in metaphors when we speak about God because that is all we really can do. The metaphors in reference to God take the male gender.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Cure of Ars