Fighting Abortion

[Odysseus]

If we truly believe that a human person is unjustly killed by an abortion then why do we also say that it is wrong to do violence at abortion clinics? I'm not at all condoning violence and I'm not in agreement with it, but I also sometimes see the logic of it. If saw an armed man holding people hostage and if he seemed dangerous and capeable of killing some of the hostages, it would be my right and my duty to do violence to him, if at all possible, to prevent the loss of innocent life. Why doesn't that reasoning hold for defending life in the womb?

I'm not necessarily talking about doing violence to the abortion providers, but to the facilities where they work. Why would it be wrong to damage the buildings?


Also, I know of prolife demonstrators who take pictures of the women and girls who come to get abortions, and then post them on the internet, I suppose with the intent to deter others from abortion so they will not be so shamed. Is this an appropriate thing to do? As much as I hate (don't hate, appreciate) abortion, this seems kind of creepy.

[Jesus_lol]

thats one point where the fiddler on hate (don't hate, appreciate) didnt really work appropriately.

i think, aside from whether or not you actually hurt anyone by doing said violence, acting in that way reduces you to a terrorist.
think about it, doing harm to people to countenance your religious/other beliefs only ever serves to alienate you, and thus your intention from the public.
who has made more effective positive change in the world, ghandi or osama bin laden?

Edited May 19, 2008 by Jesus_lol

[Odysseus]

I'm not implying I would do such a thing.

Just how do you explain to someone who wonders why we wouln't, knowing that many lives are being lost there?

[Brother Adam]

I don't see any problem with forcibly keeping women out of abortion clinics or chaining myself together with other abortion protesters in groups like Operation Rescue. This is genocide and we aren't doing enough. If I ever found myself in the same room as a murderer about to perform an abortion I would use any means necessary to save the life of the child, whether that be tackle him/her to the ground, make the area "unsanitary" so the murder could not take place, etc.

[picchick]

[quote name='Odysseus' post='1533193' date='May 19 2008, 12:10 AM']If we truly believe that a human person is unjustly killed by an abortion then why do we also say that it is wrong to do violence at abortion clinics? I'm not at all condoning violence and I'm not in agreement with it, but I also sometimes see the logic of it. If saw an armed man holding people hostage and if he seemed dangerous and capeable of killing some of the hostages, it would be my right and my duty to do violence to him, if at all possible, to prevent the loss of innocent life. Why doesn't that reasoning hold for defending life in the womb?

I'm not necessarily talking about doing violence to the abortion providers, but to the facilities where they work. Why would it be wrong to damage the buildings?


Also, I know of prolife demonstrators who take pictures of the women and girls who come to get abortions, and then post them on the internet, I suppose with the intent to deter others from abortion so they will not be so shamed. Is this an appropriate thing to do? As much as I hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) abortion, this seems kind of creepy.[/quote]
You cannot vandalize.
This is a very touchy area. The problem with doing anything to the buildings is the fact that anything "wrong" done by pro-lifers get blown out of proportion. Plus, even if it is an evil place, the ends does not justify the means. Ever.

As an activist in the pro-life movement, when I see other activists do stupid things that they are repeatively warned not to do, it angers me. It does not help our cause but destroys it. There is a video on youtube with a guy who is "pro-life" holding a crucifix. I hate (don't hate, appreciate) that video. He is shouting at the women entering the abortion clinic and calling them murders. What a way to help a woman. Do you think that those words are going to help her? No. When I go to the clinic, I pray because I feel that I am not yet ready to be a counselor. The area where we counsel is very hard. It is on street with no sidewalk and we have to shout across the street to the women. My mom and brother do excellent jobs. The yell, "We are not here to judge. We just have information for you. We are here for you if you want to talk."

I also do not agree with taking pictures of women and girls and posting them on the internet. These women are most likely going to be sufferingI also do not agree with posting the pictures or numbers of the licence plates. However, I do not see a problem with posting pictures of abortionists since many of them have their information on the internet as it is.

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1533560' date='May 19 2008, 01:40 PM']I don't see any problem with forcibly keeping women out of abortion clinics or chaining myself together with other abortion protesters in groups like Operation Rescue. This is genocide and we aren't doing enough. If I ever found myself in the same room as a murderer about to perform an abortion I would use any means necessary to save the life of the child, whether that be tackle him/her to the ground, make the area "unsanitary" so the murder could not take place, etc.[/quote]

I am wondering...I don't know if the abortionists care about an area being unsanitary. I mean they are required to of course but I wonder if they really would care.

Forcibly trying to keep women out of an abortion clinic will only get you in trouble. The woman will still end up going in there eventually after the cops are called and you are in handcuffs.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if there is no dispute about the viability of the baby... which often is the case,,,, and killing the baby isn't necessary to save the mother.... then it's no different than murder really.

clearly, late term babies are babies and persons. i think some people get in the mind set that, the only way to save the mother is to kill the baby,,,, which might be true a lot of times, but a lot of times it's not either. as one abortino doctor said.... "Gee, it's too bad that this child couldn't be adopted. On the other hand, I have another position, which I think is superior in the hierarchy of questions, and that is: "Who owns the child?" It's got to be the mother." He also said a lot of times the baby is viable and healthy needn't be destroyed but he does anyway.

If I were taking people to the slaughter house who were born, people wouldn't be calling me a terrorist for stopping them, even for murdering the perpetrators, even if against the law. i think it totally justified, if you know the situation of the pregnancy and details, to kill the mother to stop her etc. the problem is usually you don't now the details and for most abortions, it's not as clear as the few that do occur without a point at all.

Edited May 19, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Brother Adam]

I don't have any problem being imprisoned, and not all women will go get one after being forcibly stopped, though some will. Operation Rescue has done a lot of good, and even if it only saves the life of one person (and it has saved the lives of many more than one) it is still worth it. Unfortunately we don't see abortion as a satanic war on life, but that is exactly what it is.

[CatherineM]

There are many ways to fight. Lobby to make abortion clinics have to pass the same requirements that any other outpatient surgery clinic has to. Lobby to pass laws that require parental notification. Kids under 18 have to have permission to get a tatoo, but not life altering surgery. That gets the kids who are having an abortion because they are afraid for their parents to find out. Raise money for free child care facilities outside of colleges so that women don't feel like they have to choose between continuing their education and being a mother.

Start a foundation to pay for the adoption costs so that middle income people can offer homes to these women's babies. Put more teeth into child support legislation so that women feel like they have the means to care for their children. How about mandating better maternity leave so that women don't feel like they have to choose between their careers and a child, or paying women a wage when they are pregnant. Instead of welfare after the birth alone, how about welfare before. Finally make it mandatory that every woman has to have a 3D ultrasound before having an abortion.

[picchick]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1533576' date='May 19 2008, 02:02 PM']I don't have any problem being imprisoned, and not all women will go get one after being forcibly stopped, though some will. Operation Rescue has done a lot of good, and even if it only saves the life of one person (and it has saved the lives of many more than one) it is still worth it. Unfortunately we don't see abortion as a satanic war on life, but that is exactly what it is.[/quote]

Operation Rescue...I could get a lot from their site...do they forcibly stop women? How do they do what they do?

I too have no problem with impriosonment however, my impriosonment, if because of a stupid thing on my part, will hurt the cause in the end. Rules are enforced more. More laws are enacted against us. We are seen not rationally but as irrationally.

Why do you think that people view some pro-lifers as radical crazy people? Because many pro-lifers do not know how to handle themselves. Whereas planned parenthood remains cool and level headed.

I see the abortion issue as war. Don't worry about that. However, the battles need to be strategically planned.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1533597' date='May 19 2008, 02:17 PM']There are many ways to fight. Lobby to make abortion clinics have to pass the same requirements that any other outpatient surgery clinic has to. Lobby to pass laws that require parental notification. Kids under 18 have to have permission to get a tatoo, but not life altering surgery. That gets the kids who are having an abortion because they are afraid for their parents to find out. Raise money for free child care facilities outside of colleges so that women don't feel like they have to choose between continuing their education and being a mother.

Start a foundation to pay for the adoption costs so that middle income people can offer homes to these women's babies. Put more teeth into child support legislation so that women feel like they have the means to care for their children. How about mandating better maternity leave so that women don't feel like they have to choose between their careers and a child, or paying women a wage when they are pregnant. Instead of welfare after the birth alone, how about welfare before. Finally make it mandatory that every woman has to have a 3D ultrasound before having an abortion.[/quote]

There are so many resources out there for women. The new PP clinic by me is "needed" as the city says. Yet the city fails to see that there are resources in the area that the PP clinic is not needed. If the woman wants BC then there are free clinics that are not abortion clinics that will give out BC. If they want condoms, the health department will have free condoms. The only reason why that PP clinic is where I live is for abortions. It is evident by the fact that it is the largest mill in the area.

I am not supporting the use of BC/condoms. However, if that is why the women are going there...go somewhere else. The reason why that clinic is open is for mostly abortions. Get rid of the other stuff and that will be more evident to the community. Right now they are hiding under the other stuff with the abortion issue.

What about boycotting as well?

[LivingStone]

........sigh..........

There is one really good reason why I frown upon (and then some) any of these methods. I disagree with violence done to abortion clinics, especially with taking pictures of the mothers that are walking into abortion clinics. The reason is this:

I am a sidewalk counselor for abortion clinics for the Students for Life group at Franciscan University and have learned from the best (Monsignor Reilly in the Bronx of New York City). This holy man has closed numerous upon numerous of abortion clinics down and has saved the lives of many. I saw him do sidewalk counseling (talking to the mothers as they go into a clinic), the man saved almost two dozen. This man is the best and gave a weekend long seminar on how to do sidewalk counseling and the philosophy behind it. He also disclosed a few things wrong with Operation Rescue (I won't get into that right now).

However important the life of the child is, there is something that is arguably just as important: the conversion of heart of the mother. Sidewalk counseling is geared at doing both: saving the child and converting the heart of the mother. It is the soul of the child [b]and the mother[/b] that is at stake here. Operation Rescue tactics of handcuffing oneself to a door or forcing someone not to have an abortion is not Christ-like in the way that there is no love for the mother. It might accomplish one of the two goals temporarily, but these "radical Catholics" are the reason why she's going to "harden her heart" and just go to another neighboring clinic.

Destroying equipment only temporarily stops a mother from aborting her child. The very act that deterred her away from the initial damaged abortion clinic now has her all the more determined to find another one (and in a city, there are sometimes dozens of these).

This is the beauty of sidewalk counseling. It is so important to keep charity and love in the forefront of any sidewalk counseling. I've seen turnarounds (where the mother who planned on an abortion actually is convinced to turn around). We provide literature of where the mother can receive help of any kind (spiritual, monetary, material, etc.). We do a lot of sidewalk counseling before the abortion, but it is all the more important to [b]sidewalk counsel AFTER an abortion[/b]. It is at this time that the mother feels the most alone, after she gives into the pressure of her mother or her boyfriend. It is at this time that the mother needs help the most, and our loving presence makes her feel just that: loved. This is what can save the mother's soul and the souls of any children she has in the future.

You need to focus on both the soul of the baby and the soul of the mother, and do all of your actions out of love. As you are sidewalk counseling, you need to know what you are doing and you need to always remain in a state of prayer. For if a child is saved, it is only because of the Lord's power through you, not you yourself. You need to fast for your counseling, you need to pray before hand, and go to Holy Mass. Only in great spiritual preparation can one really be ready to defend life at the front lines. Make sense?

[Brother Adam]

"Why do you think that people view some pro-lifers as radical crazy people? Because many pro-lifers do not know how to handle themselves. Whereas planned parenthood remains cool and level headed."

They are viewed as radical crazies because the media is liberal. Even people at the March for Life are painted as radical crazies.

"However important the life of the child is, there is something that is arguably just as important: the conversion of heart of the mother."

You might argue it, but life is more important here. There is plenty of time to convert the mother, only a few minutes to save the life of an innocent human being.

"Operation Rescue tactics of handcuffing oneself to a door or forcing someone not to have an abortion is not Christ-like in the way"

Stopping people from murdering their children when all else fails is not Christ like? I don't see your logic.

"Operation Rescue tactics of handcuffing oneself to a door or forcing someone not to have an abortion is not Christ-like in the way that there is no love for the mother."

There is more than enough room for both tactics - but sometimes counseling fails, and the mother will intend to murder her child anyway, and often times after she has been consoled and still intends to kill her child she is fully culpable for her sin.

"Destroying equipment only temporarily stops a mother from aborting her child. The very act that deterred her away from the initial damaged abortion clinic now has her all the more determined to find another one (and in a city, there are sometimes dozens of these)."

Which is why violence against property should be a very last resort, but when a soldier or a psychopath has a gun pointed to the head of an innocent person, sometimes you have to kill them or stop them using violence, which is very much a Catholic concept.

"For if a child is saved, it is only because of the Lord's power through you, not you yourself. You need to fast for your counseling, you need to pray before hand, and go to Holy Mass. Only in great spiritual preparation can one really be ready to defend life at the front lines"

Great advice, I'm glad you listened at your training. It should be known though that sometimes there is love in violence, when all else has failed. Jesus acted in violence and righteous anger and overturned the money tables in the temple. Just war theory allows for the shooting and killing of enemy combatants when all else fails and they are unjustly acting out against innocent people. Psychopaths who murder innocent children are unjust aggressors and need to be dealt with, and mothers who feel they are at liberty to murder their children need to be consoled.

[picchick]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1533789' date='May 19 2008, 04:07 PM']They are viewed as radical crazies because the media is liberal. Even people at the March for Life are painted as radical crazies.[/quote]
Why do you think that the people at the March are though of as radical crazies?


[quote]Stopping people from murdering their children when all else fails is not Christ like? I don't see your logic.[/quote]
You have to do it in a Christ-like way.


[quote]Which is why violence against property should be a very last resort, but when a soldier or a psychopath has a gun pointed to the head of an innocent person, sometimes you have to kill them or stop them using violence, which is very much a Catholic concept.[/quote]
What are you saying here? That vandalism and killing abortionists should be used as a last resort? I just want to clarify what I am reading.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]However important the life of the child is, there is something that is arguably just as important: the conversion of heart of the mother. Sidewalk counseling is geared at doing both: saving the child and converting the heart of the mother. It is the soul of the child and the mother that is at stake here.[/quote]

the only real justification as said is taht we don't want people to harden their hearts to change... people in the future that is... i'd have to think about this one though, cause it's allowing people to die just so we can try to change hearts and have less die in the future. also, i'm not sure we're making any progress or not, if not then we are being pointless trying to change hearts, as it's not happening in the last thirty years. maybe there have been hearts that have been not hardened by the lack of militatn prolife, i don't know. i think this is probably the question, as an indicator for whether change will occur in the future with people's hearts.
i don't know i guess.

cause in the case of the mother in the present.... as an analogy, we do not say about people murdering others.... "gee, if only i could change the murderers heart". in fact, the mother in those clearly wrong cases should die before a murderer (unless a serial killer), cause a murderer usually has a bad heart wheras the mother is just ill advised/ignorant etc. the mother could not be culpable, but the murderer is more likely.

it's exactly the same as stopping a born person from being taken to the slaughterhouse. ... it's not about just war, or anything like that. it's one person, the baby, in one situation, and the right and heroic thing to do is to save the innocent if you can.

the only real reason i don't is that i am coward, kill mothers who have no reason to abort a viable baby, that is. i also rationalize, and it might be true somewhat, that i could be more effective trying to change the laws someday etc, than to be stuck in jail when if i were to get caught.

Edited May 19, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

"Gee, it's too bad that this child couldn't be adopted. On the other hand, I have another position, which I think is superior in the hierarchy of questions, and that is: "Who owns the child?"

a doctor actually said that once. it's totally flawed cause consider someone saying, in the case of an accidental birth if a partial birth had occurred:
"what's the difference between an inch in and an inch out of the mother? i say, it's a techincal difference, so the doctor should just kill it right then outside of the womb.
or if we want to add some level of respectiviblity, assuming putting the baby back in and then killing it wouldn't count as to respectability..... we can just transport teh baby to a killing room made and sanctified for that sort of purpose.
or, we could wait a few days or weeks if the baby is viable until a govenor gives the okay, and then kill it.
it's all the same difference."

a couple of inches, is not a relevant reason to allow or not the abortion... she assumed too must to justify the abortion, the risk of pregnancy, and even carried it so far into the pregnacy.

Edited May 19, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[picchick]

Diarygirl, your posts are confusing me...what are you saying?