Christians Are Second-class Citizens Of Islamic Republic Of Pakistan.

[kujo]

[quote name='Deb' post='1531372' date='May 17 2008, 01:17 PM']Good Point. How many Muslims do we have positions of power here? But, we do have many of all other religions.[/quote]

That's what I'm saying. If Christians account for >3% of the population, why should they be represented in government in any great numbers?

I just read a section of their constitution that seems pertinent:

[quote]20. Subject to law, public order and morality:-

[indent](a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and

(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.[/indent]

21. No person shall be compelled to pay any special tax the proceeds of which are to be spent on the propagation or maintenance of any religion other than his own.

22.
(1) No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruc tion, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship, if such instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own.

(2) In respect of any religious institution, there shall be no discrimination against any community in the granting of exemption or concession in relation to taxation.

(3) Subject to law:

[indent](a) no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination; and

(b) no citizen shall be denied admission to any educational institution receiving aid from public revenues on the ground only of race, religion, caste or place of birth. [/indent]

(4) Nothing in this Article shall prevent any public authority from making provision for the advancement of any socially or educationally backward class of citizens.[/quote]

[url="http://www.vakilno1.com/saarclaw/pakistan/consitution/part_2.htm"]Constitution of Pakistan Part II: 20-22[/url]

[mortify]

Hard to believe it has nothing to do with religion but even if that were true in Islam non-Muslims should not be in positions of rule over Muslims. This is precisely the meaning of that notorious verse which forbids Muslims from being friends with non-Muslims. The word for "friend" is "awliyya" which basically means "guardians" if I recall correctly. So Christians and Jews are not to be the guardians of Muslims.

Edited May 17, 2008 by mortify

[kujo]

[quote name='mortify' post='1531412' date='May 17 2008, 01:37 PM']Hard to believe it has nothing to do with religion but even if that were true in Islam non-Muslims should not be in positions of rule over Muslims. This is precisely the meaning of that notorious verse which forbids Muslims from being friends with non-Muslims. The word for "friend" is "awliyya" which basically means "guardians" if I recall correctly. So Christians and Jews are not to be the guardians of Muslims.[/quote]

I never said it had "nothing" to do with religion, just that it is probably more likely due to population trends considering Pakistan is a more progressive Islamic country than most.

[mortify]

What do you think CatholicWing, is Kujo right?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='kujo' post='1531299' date='May 17 2008, 04:25 PM']Pakistan is made up of 165 million people, 97% of which are Muslim. 77% are Sunnis while 20% are Shi'a. With such an overwhelming majority of people in the country being Muslim, is it any surprise that they dominate all areas of life? I mean, Pastafarians have religious freedoms in the US, but do you think there are any of them in our government?[/quote]
I had that thought. I mean, if Christians are actively being barred from such positions, then of course it is horrible, as I don't think people should be barred, or chosen, based solely on religion, but on merit. But if it is because of demographics, that is a bit different.

[CatherineM]

This is the kind of concrete item that we ask for when debating those of you who believe that every muslim is evil, bloodthirsty, etc. I don't object to pointing out obviously wrong policies, I always object to sweeping generalities that label innocent people along with guilty ones. These policies are obviously discriminatory, just as parts of India's caste system is, or even the law that prevents someone who is Catholic from being in line to the throne of England.

Christianity has always survived times of persecution. I wish we didn't have to endure it, but when you stand for the truth, there will always be people who don't want to be confused by the truth, who will work against us.

[StColette]

[quote name='CatholicWing' post='1530991' date='May 16 2008, 11:18 PM']Lets see the share of Christians in the administration of government:[/quote]

Not going to get into the whole Christian vs Muslim debates that always seem to accompany these threads.

I would like to make a comment toward the sentence I quoted. I would like someone to show me a country that can say that its adminstration of government has a Christian in every one of the positions listed. The US, I'm pretty sure has a majority over most countries. But I'm talking about true Christians, not people who call themselves Christian and in a couple sentences later are pro-abortion.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='StColette' post='1532221' date='May 18 2008, 02:43 PM']I would like someone to show me a country that can say that its adminstration of government has a Christian in every one of the positions listed. The US, I'm pretty sure has a majority over most countries. But I'm talking about true Christians, not people who call themselves Christian and in a couple sentences later are pro-abortion.[/quote]
Good point.

[CatherineM]

Christians in government. It would probably have to be a small country where everyone is traditionally Christian like Liechtenstein or where Catholicism is the official state religion, like Malta or Monaco. Oh yeah, one country that I'm pretty sure that all people in offices are Christian is the City-state called Vatican City.

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1531091' date='May 17 2008, 12:13 AM']+J.M.J.+
CatholicWing, did you get the items I sent you? [/quote]
Lil Red thanks you're very much to send us Religious stuff. That’s was really expensive and pretty nice religious items, especially Rosaries and Crucifixes. All items are beautiful.
I am sorry I am come back to the phorum late. I was distributing the Religious items in the Christians people in different places. Because people have had not to much opportunities to get these kind of stuff and if somewhere some Sisters (Nuns) have stall things are expensive, poor people cant afforded them. So I request to other phatmass members to if they have some religious stuff they can trust fully send to me I have had distributing religious stuff the poor people without any cast and where missionaries are not get regularly.
And yeah if Lil Red you have some more Religious items you can send me stuff. My Christian community giving yours lot prayers and love and best wishes.

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1531155' date='May 17 2008, 05:56 AM']I would pretty much agree with you here.[/quote]
i do....

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1531159' date='May 17 2008, 06:44 AM']The same as I make of injustice in any country, perpetrated by any group of people against another. It's not possible to treat anybody as inferior - either in your thoughts or in your actions - and have real freedom or real faith, which is why I am an active supporter of groups that work for human rights in Muslim countries where there is injustice. I support them with my money and my prayers, and occasionally by writing articles to raise awareness. Unfortunately, there are people on Phatmass who probably wouldn't support the work of all these groups with the same enthusiasm that I have for them - largely because they're run by Muslims. And that kind of prejudice, too, is unjust.

I am particularly active in peace and justice work for Palestine (I will be travelling there again in the summer) and I have noticed that when I talk about the poverty and inequalities experienced by Palestinian and Israeli Arab Christians on PM, there is a small number of people who refuse to accept what's happening and who say everything they can to exonerate the Israeli government - because only Muslims can be unjust and oppressive, and it's unthinkable that Muslims could ever be part of the oppressed. This kind of prejudice, too, is unjust - and it makes me wonder whether our compassion for Christians in CatholicWing's situation is motivated entirely by fellow-feeling for human beings in distress, or whether it is generated (at least in part) by the fact that the people responsible for that distress are Muslims, everybody's favourite bogeyman.

My first encounter with religious extremism came when I was nine years old, and there was a bomb threat against my school in Saudi Arabia. My dad was friends with Robert Dent, a man who died in a religiously motivated killing in Saudi. I am familiar with soldiers accompanying me on shopping trips and metal blast-doors that must be pulled shut at the top of the stairs before you go to bed at night, just in case terrorists ever end up inside your villa. If I felt like keeping a blog of my experiences, peppering them with invective against the terrorists and the people who spat on me and my mum in the Jeddah Balad, I daresay people would be more comfortable with what I have to say. I might even receive the accolade of being added to Mme Vengier's blog roll as a 'brave freedom fighter'. Yet I don't h ate Muslims - most of my best friends are Muslim. I get the impression that CatholicWing doesn't h ate them either. I've certainly never see him be bitter about them as people. He simply states the bleak reality of what life in Pakistan is like for the non-Muslim minority.

I don't even see Islam as evil. How could I? My early faith formation was Islamic. A copy of Surah al-Fatiha still hangs on my wall. And even if I hadn't had that personal experience...how could I see a group of people as evil and still claim to care about injustice?

Injustice stems from the belief that another person or group of people is inferior to yourself, as I said before. And we all think that about others occasionally, whether we recognise it or not. If we're serious about combating injustice in the world we have to root it out of ourselves first, which is incredibly difficult. It's not easy to live comfortably if you don't have someone to look down on - oh, for the holiest of reasons, of course.

CatholicWing, I am praying for you and your fellow Christians in Pakistan.
There are Pakistani Muslims who campaign for equal rights and education for everybody in Pakistan, no matter what their religion - Shahnaz Bukhari, Mukhtar Mai, Asma Jahangir, to name just three of the most prominent who crop up in the press a lot. The last one, Jahangir, is a lawyer who has put her life at risk to fight legal cases for many of the most underprivileged members of Pakistani society, including Christians.

Apart from post vitriolic comments about Islam and Muslims on the Internet, what have you done to change the situation for the better, Madame Vengier?

That's a rhetorical question. You needn't try and answer.

May Our Lady, Help of Christians be the strength of all our persecuted brothers and sisters worldwide. And may Our Lady, Sword of Justice cut all prejudice out of us.[/quote]

Cathoholic Anonymous!!!
So if I have not fear and I have freedom then I will tell you briefly what I am thinking about Muslims.
But I want to send you link please read it and after you read this link I am sure you will get great surprise and you can think what kind of feelings I have for muslims.
So this is link below:
[url="http://www.cswusa.com/reports%20pages/Reports-Pakistan.htm"]http://www.cswusa.com/reports%20pages/Reports-Pakistan.htm[/url]

I am so love my Christian innocent girls those are so young and get raped, who give them justice?
I am so love my Christian brothers who killed by muslims and our Police, who will support there families and give them justice?
I am love with Christian Mothers and Fathers those kids are getting rapes and persecuted who will wipe their tears and give them hug?
I have lot of question not I am every Christian of Pakistani have lot of questions ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? to the Christian world especially USA because which I link gave to you there some persecuted we bear for USA.

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1531157' date='May 17 2008, 06:25 AM']1: Of course, I agree with the statement as well. Common sense dictates (and experience shows) that all Muslims ARE NOT like that (thank God!). My point for using that statement the way I did was that every time a discussion of Islam comes up, every time radical Muslims are criticized, every time Islamic culture and theology are scrutinized, every time someone points out the numerous ways that Muslims around the world oppress people and cause violence...someone pops up with "Not all Muslims are that way" as if they has ANY bearing on the issues at hand. As if the fact that there are good Muslims really changes one iota of the pain caused by the really, really wicked ones.

2: I agree, Islam is a wicked religion and "good Muslims" are actually "bad Muslims".

3: Absolutely not all Muslims are evil. It's so preposterous that anyone could think this. But somehow, if you talk about radical Islam and you don't include a disclaimer with your remarks such as "not all Muslims are like this" then people assume you DO believe all Muslims are like that. Which is ignorant and stupid. How can someone interpret something out of nothing?? "Well, she's criticizing SOME Muslims and she didn't say that SOME Muslims are good, so therefore she must believe they are all bad." This is utter stupidity. If a person is talking about RADICALS (and we know who those people are and what they are doing, so why play dumb?) then it stands to reason that "moderate" or "good" Muslims are not included! But I find myself having to explain these things to people as if they are 3 years old.

4: The Koran's views on the Blessed Virgin really mean nothing to me when that very same Koran refers to to Jews and Christians as "apes and pigs" and gives detailed instructions on how to murder Christians, calling us "kafir" and stating any kind of punishment against us is allowed, from dhimmitude to outright killing.

I posted an interview at my blog that you and others may find very informative regarding this subject...wait, maybe I already posted it. Let me check...

Okay, I did post it here already. But I will post it again and I want to draw your attention to the text about "kafir":

[url="http://talkinjihadblues.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/the-myth-of-moderate-muslims/"]http://talkinjihadblues.wordpress.com/2008...derate-muslims/[/url][/quote]

please read this link you way of think will think after read this link by different point of view.
So this is link below:
[url="http://www.cswusa.com/reports%20pages/Reports-Pakistan.htm"]http://www.cswusa.com/reports%20pages/Reports-Pakistan.htm[/url]

I am so love my Christian innocent girls those are so young and get raped, who give them justice?
I am so love my Christian brothers who killed by muslims and our Police, who will support there families and give them justice?
I am love with Christian Mothers and Fathers those kids are getting rapes and persecuted who will wipe their tears and give them hug?
I have lot of question not I am every Christian of Pakistani have lot of questions ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? to the Christian world especially USA because which I link gave to you there some persecuted we bear for USA.

[CatholicWing]

[quote name='kujo' post='1531299' date='May 17 2008, 10:25 AM']Pakistan is made up of 165 million people, 97% of which are Muslim. 77% are Sunnis while 20% are Shi'a. With such an overwhelming majority of people in the country being Muslim, is it any surprise that they dominate all areas of life? I mean, Pastafarians have religious freedoms in the US, but do you think there are any of them in our government?[/quote]

You have wrong information about percent age……………
Pakistan has a population of 143 million, of which 96.1% are Muslim. Christians account for 2.5% of the population, or about 3.8 million people. Of these, 1,288,000 are Catholics.
What USA has a population of Christian and other non Christian people?

Quaid E Azam our Great Hero never wished Pakistan to be only state for Muslims but homeland for inhabitants of all religions.
What your Great Hero of USA wished…………..?

[kujo]

[quote name='CatholicWing' post='1533185' date='May 19 2008, 12:48 AM']You have wrong information about percent age……………
Pakistan has a population of 143 million, of which 96.1% are Muslim. Christians account for 2.5% of the population, or about 3.8 million people. Of these, 1,288,000 are Catholics.
What USA has a population of Christian and other non Christian people?

Quaid E Azam our Great Hero never wished Pakistan to be only state for Muslims but homeland for inhabitants of all religions.
What your Great Hero of USA wished…………..?[/quote]

First of all, I don't understand most of what you just.

Secondly, my sources are from the [url="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/"]CIA World Factbook.[/url] Where are yours?