I Attended Obamaroma

[KnightofChrist]

What made Adolf Hitler, and Joesph Stalin evil was not so much their policies but the fact they regarded certain groups of persons as not human or unhuman and supported the termination of those indivdials existence. Plain and simple the same is true for Obama, Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, and any other Abortionist Leader, and since more have died in the Abortion holocaust than died under Adolf Hitler, and Joesph Stalin, the leaders who support the Abortion Holocaust are in fact more evil than ether Stalin or Hitler.

Replace the word fetus with Jew and maybe it will be understood. I guess it would depend on if one believes Adolf Hitler, and/or Joesph Stalin to be evil.

[goldenchild17]

definitely agreed. Though I'm wondering if some here believe man can be actually evil at all?

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1533660' date='May 19 2008, 04:01 PM']What made Adolf Hitler, and Joesph Stalin evil was not so much their policies but the fact they regarded certain groups of persons as not human or unhuman and supported the termination of those indivdials existence. Plain and simple the same is true for Obama, Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, and any other Abortionist Leader, and since more have died in the Abortion holocaust than died under Adolf Hitler, and Joesph Stalin, the leaders who support the Abortion Holocaust are in fact more evil than ether Stalin or Hitler.

Replace the word fetus with Jew and maybe it will be understood. I guess it would depend on if one believes Adolf Hitler, and/or Joesph Stalin to be evil.[/quote]

No.

[goldenchild17]

I can't say I agree on this one. Though I'm interested in why you are intrigued by Obama, or am I mistaken by that too? If you are, maybe you could help me understand why, I'd appreciate it. I understand the intrigue in voting for a Democratic candidate and hoping (and in some cases maybe even fulfilling this hope) that abortions decrease through some of their social(ist ) programs. But if the ends don't justify the means, then I'm just not sure how it's okay. Not that I'm not open to seeing it, I just don't yet. peace

[kujo]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1534427' date='May 20 2008, 02:28 AM']I can't say I agree on this one. Though I'm interested in why you are intrigued by Obama, or am I mistaken by that too? If you are, maybe you could help me understand why, I'd appreciate it. I understand the intrigue in voting for a Democratic candidate and hoping (and in some cases maybe even fulfilling this hope) that abortions decrease through some of their social(ist ) programs. But if the ends don't justify the means, then I'm just not sure how it's okay. Not that I'm not open to seeing it, I just don't yet. peace[/quote]

Who are you referring to here GC?

[goldenchild17]

nevermind, I'm supertired. I should probably stop posting for the night and do something brainless . I THOUGHT I was replying to someone else, but I re-checked and saw you're SN. No, I'm not blonde . sorry about that.

Though if you're "no" to that post is meant to say that you don't think Obama, or maybe even none of those men are evil, or maybe that the comparison between Obama and pro-choice to Hitler and his regime is inaccurate, then I would have to respectfully disagree. peace

Edited May 20, 2008 by goldenchild17

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1534422' date='May 20 2008, 12:21 AM']No.[/quote]

You do not believe Stalin or Hitler where evil?

[kujo]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1534443' date='May 20 2008, 02:41 AM']nevermind, I'm supertired. I should probably stop posting for the night and do something brainless . I THOUGHT I was replying to someone else, but I re-checked and saw you're SN. No, I'm not blonde . sorry about that.

Though if you're "no" to that post is meant to say that you don't think Obama, or maybe even none of those men are evil, or maybe that the comparison between Obama and pro-choice to Hitler and his regime is inaccurate, then I would have to respectfully disagree. peace[/quote]

I disagree with the comparison between Obama (or any pro-choice person) and Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao, etc.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1534508' date='May 20 2008, 08:03 AM']You do not believe Stalin or Hitler where evil?[/quote]

I believe their actions were the epitome of evil and that they committed some of the most vile acts of violence upon the human race; however, they were still children of a God who loves them.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='kujo' post='1533347' date='May 19 2008, 09:48 AM']Right. So, the number of reported abortions (that being the ones performed at a doctor's office or a clinic or whatever) are declining. Raph brought up a good point in that we can't know whether there's been a commensurate increase in the at-home ones using RU-486 and the like; however, the fact remains that the ones being performed by physicians are declining.

Why are we fighting these statistics? This is a good thing, regardless of who was in the White House/Congress when it came about.[/quote]

No, this is not a good thing necessarily. Consider this...perhaps the abortions performed by physicians are decreasing because there's no need, since more people are getting abortions through RU-486. It's even possible that abortions overall have increased and that people are using RU-486 so much that it makes up even for the increase in overall abortions and makes physician-provided abortions decrease.

So it's really quite fruitless to quote statistics nowadays on abortion. We just don't have reliable information.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1534508' date='May 20 2008, 07:03 AM']You do not believe Stalin or Hitler where evil?[/quote]
Even Satan is intrinsically good, because he still bears God's image in his nature. I believe it was St. Basil of Caesarea who said (in regard to humans) that the image of God remains, but the likeness of God fails in sinners. The image of God is intrinsic to nature, and one's nature does not chance when one becomes wicked, but their likeness to God does.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kujo' post='1533347' date='May 19 2008, 07:48 AM']Right. So, the number of reported abortions (that being the ones performed at a doctor's office or a clinic or whatever) are declining.[/quote]
As Grand Moff Tarkin said to Princess Leia: "You're far too trusting."

I do not trust the abortion mills in the United States, which make a profit off of the crime of murder, to report what they are doing accurately, because they have a vested interest in keeping abortion legal.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1533173' date='May 19 2008, 12:18 AM']Okay, I believe I have posted my opinion on this matter enough times to not have to reiterate it here, however I will just say this: I have not been told over and over again that voting for Obama is morally wrong. I have been informed via a an internet forum by people I don't know that they believe that it is wrong for me to vote for Obama. The reality is that most clergy I have talked to (I go to the Catholic University of America, so there are many) have said that a Catholic is not obliged to vote for a particular candidate, but may choose they one that will bring about the largest overall good. A Catholic must not directly vote in favor of abortion if for example they were a member of the legislature themselves, but they can vote for whichever candidate they prefer if their vote is based on the candidate's opinion on other issues. They fact is that I really don't think it will make a difference in the ongoing saga of abortion legislation and judicial review, who the president is. THerefore I'm going to vote for Obama because I believe that he will improve the state of this country's domestic and foreign affairs to the point where there will be a net decrease in the amount of abortions performed. Recall that this is what happened in the Clinton administration. Also, looking at the current age and makeup of the Supreme court, it doesn't seem likely that there will be any vacancies in the next four years, so barring the opportunity for a supreme court nomination, what exactly is it that you expect McCain to do to stop abortion. He can't just snap his fingers and make it illegal.[/quote]
Please do NOT be deluded: by voting for Obama you are voting for increased availability of abortion, using taxpayer funding for promoting abortion in developing countries, increased birth control in schools, and gay marriage.

What part of Obama in the list below can you mesh with [color="#FF0000"]any[/color] Catholic teaching:
Men have the sense to know that they are helped by Planned Parenthood (i.e., free sex, no responsibility)
Abortion rights = equal rights with men
Wants to win Presidency and ensure the Supreme Court tips toward liberals
Partial Birth abortion should not be banned
“I put Roe at the center of my lesson plan when teaching constitutional law”
Stands by his liberal abortion voting record
He will not yield on abortion rights, particularly concerning appointing liberal Supreme Court nominees
“Choice” is a lifestyle
“Culture wars are just so 90’s”
Teach science/contraception to girls in school
Never be willing to consign (punish) a teenaged girl to a lifetime of struggle because of a lack of access to birth control
Churches like United Trinity Church of Christ understand that abstinence and fidelity are the ideal and not the reality
Stay at home motherhood and the nuclear family is an “ancient notion”
Abortion rights help women to break through the glass ceiling
Planned Parenthood’s first Margaret Sanger Award in 1966 was awarded to Martin Luther King Jr, who wrote in his acceptance speech: “Our sure beginning in the struggle for equality by non-violent direct action may not have been so resolution without the tradition established by Margarget Sanger and people like her.”

THese are from his own speech to planned parenthood!

[kujo]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1534552' date='May 20 2008, 10:18 AM']No, this is not a good thing necessarily. Consider this...perhaps the abortions performed by physicians are decreasing because there's no need, since more people are getting abortions through RU-486. It's even possible that abortions overall have increased and that people are using RU-486 so much that it makes up even for the increase in overall abortions and makes physician-provided abortions decrease.

So it's really quite fruitless to quote statistics nowadays on abortion. We just don't have reliable information.[/quote]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1534562' date='May 20 2008, 10:58 AM']As Grand Moff Tarkin said to Princess Leia: "You're far too trusting."

I do not trust the abortion mills in the United States, which make a profit off of the crime of murder, to report what they are doing accurately, because they have a vested interest in keeping abortion legal.[/quote]

I don't know that there's much need to lie about this stuff, to be truthful. Abortion is legal and will not be less-legal if there are more abortions being performed. I think your suspicion is valid, but I doubt there's much to it.

[quote name='Raphael' post='1534553' date='May 20 2008, 10:21 AM']Even Satan is intrinsically good, because he still bears God's image in his nature. I believe it was St. Basil of Caesarea who said (in regard to humans) that the image of God remains, but the likeness of God fails in sinners. The image of God is intrinsic to nature, and one's nature does not chance when one becomes wicked, but their likeness to God does.[/quote]

Word.

[Didymus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1534577' date='May 20 2008, 10:28 AM']Please do NOT be deluded: by voting for Obama you are voting for increased availability of abortion, using taxpayer funding for promoting abortion in developing countries, increased birth control in schools, and gay marriage.[/quote]


is he in support of gay marriage? I thought he only failed to support the protection of marriage as a man and a woman, but I thought he wasn't fully on board with legalizing homosexual marruage...

Edited May 20, 2008 by Didymus

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='kujo' post='1534590' date='May 20 2008, 10:55 AM']I don't know that there's much need to lie about this stuff, to be truthful. Abortion is legal and will not be less-legal if there are more abortions being performed. I think your suspicion is valid, but I doubt there's much to it.[/quote]
Well, I do think Planned Parenthood lies (just look at the details surrounding their clinic in Aurora, Illinois), but that wasn't my point. My point was simple. If 10 out of 100 people went to get abortions at clinics before RU-486 was legalized, and now only 5 out of 100 do, that doesn't mean that the rate of people getting abortions dropped. For all you know, the other 5 (or more, for that matter) are just getting their abortions through RU-486. My point was simply that the statistics so often quoted to make the Clinton Administration look even remotely helpful for the cause of life are completely inaccurate and unacceptable. Those who quote them fall into the same assumption the statisticians themselves do, namely, that abortions through RU-486 aren't real abortions, and therefore don't count.

As pro-lifers, we can't accept those statistics because they are intrinsically biased in their definition of abortion to exclude a large number of abortions from qualifying under their terms, and thus artificially deflate the apparent number of abortions.