I Attended Obamaroma

[Madame Vengier]

P.S.

I also STRONGLY agree with the statement, "He really has no plan for America at all." He doesn't. He's blowing smoke up the arses of people all across America and a vast and unsettling number of them have fallen for it. He has nothing to say. Nothing to offer. He has not created any agenda. He has not outlined any plan. He just banters on about change and hope while NO ONE challenges him as to what exactly that even means. "Change we can believe in"?? How can his supporters believe in his change when he hasn't said what that change is??????

It's a mad, mad world.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1532201' date='May 18 2008, 08:24 AM']P.S.

I also STRONGLY agree with the statement, "He really has no plan for America at all." He doesn't. He's blowing smoke up the arses of people all across America and a vast and unsettling number of them have fallen for it. He has nothing to say. Nothing to offer. He has not created any agenda. He has not outlined any plan. He just banters on about change and hope while NO ONE challenges him as to what exactly that even means. "Change we can believe in"?? How can his supporters believe in his change when he hasn't said what that change is??????

It's a mad, mad world. [/quote]
It reminds me of John Kerry's constant reference to his plan for America, but would never say what that plan was...except that it seems some of the same people who were irritated with that from John Kerry seem to be eating it up from Obama.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1532145' date='May 18 2008, 03:52 AM']I could honestly say that Obama desires to change this country for the better[/quote]

If you honestly can say that, then how honest are you? No honest person can honestly say that Barack Hussein Obama desires to change this country for the better. There is simply no evidence of that. Without evidence, how can anyone honestly believe him and honestly be willing to say that he desires change for the better? He has said he's going to change America but he's not offered one iota of information as to how he plans to do that. He supports the killing of children outside the womb, panders to terrorists, has strong relationships with anti-Americans and racists, and has repeatedly shown his disregard for America and our patriotic customs. Therefore, if you believe him it's only because you are taking him at his word, [u]not[/u] because he has proven in any way that what he says is true. And since Obama has shown repeatedly that he's not a man who can be taken at his word, that means you are blindly believing the words of a liar who, if he has lied about numerous other things, is probably lying about his "change", too.

There is a serious disparity in honesty all around--both in Obama himself and in your statement about his "change".

[Justin86]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1532209' date='May 18 2008, 11:28 PM']except that it seems some of the same people who were irritated with that from John Kerry seem to be eating it up from Obama.[/quote]
John Kerry didn't have the charisma Obama has. I'm hoping that when it all comes down to it the American people will take an honest look at Obama and realize he's no different than John Kerry, and vote like they did in '04.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1532209' date='May 18 2008, 08:28 AM']It reminds me of John Kerry's constant reference to his plan for America, but would never say what that plan was...except that it seems some of the same people who were irritated with that from John Kerry seem to be eating it up from Obama.[/quote]

Because he is black. Liberals fancy themselves progressive and forward-thinking, and by backing Obama they believe they are showing themselves to be so advanced beyond the conservatives. In reality, the same man--if he were any other race--would be just as unworthy to lead our country as Obama is.

I really believe that if Obama were not running, all the people supporting him would be supporting Hillary--for the same reason. She's a woman.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1532216' date='May 18 2008, 08:34 AM']John Kerry didn't have the charisma Obama has.[/quote]

Sorry, I just don't see it. What charisma? I'm not saying that b/c I don't like him. I really don't see any charisma. He's not a smiling and friendly person who speaks with passion and conviction when he's giving speeches. He doesn't appear to respect--let alone love--America. He doesn't appear to be able to relate with most Americans--of any race or background. I don't sense gentleness or understanding in him. And he's a liar. And a racist. And a terrorist-coddler. I sense an angry man who, though spoiled and privileged most of his life, carries a bitter chip on his shoulder planted there by people like Jeremiah Wright. Even when he's out meeting the legions of his fans he comes off as haughty and disingenuous. His glad-handing and smiles are forced and only skin-deep. When you see his eyes there is no passion or fire behind him.

Charisma is the last thing I would ever see in Barack Obama.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1532222' date='May 18 2008, 11:45 PM']Sorry, I just don't see it. What charisma? I'm not saying that b/c I don't like him. I really don't see any charisma. He's not a smiling and friendly person who speaks with passion and conviction when he's giving speeches. He doesn't appear to respect--let alone love--America. He doesn't appear to be able to relate with most Americans--of any race or background. I don't sense gentleness or understanding in him. And he's a liar. And a racist. And a terrorist-coddler. I sense an angry man who, though spoiled and privileged most of his life, carries a bitter chip on his shoulder planted there by people like Jeremiah Wright. Even when he's out meeting the legions of his fans he comes off as haughty and disingenuous. His glad-handing and smiles are forced and only skin-deep. When you see his eyes there is no passion or fire behind him.

Charisma is the last thing I would ever see in Barack Obama.[/quote]
Obama inspires people, not with policies but with the mere words of "change" and "hope". I'm not sure how someone could do that and not have some type of charisma even if that type turns both me and you off.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1532230' date='May 18 2008, 08:56 AM']Obama inspires people, not with policies but with the mere words of "change" and "hope". I'm not sure how someone could do that and not have some type of charisma even if that type turns both me and you off.[/quote]

He says what they want to hear. That's not charisma. It's just good manipulation tactics. It's something liars and charlatans need to possess...for survival.

I don't know. Maybe you are right, because charisma really is subjective. Only a person who feels charisma from someone can rightfully say, "He has charisma". If another person doesn't feel it then you will say, "This person lacks charisma.". I think it's similar to charm. For example, many people say Brad Pitt is charming and I just have never, ever seen it. I don't get him at all. Granted, I don't like him as a person, but I don't like George Clooney as a person either but he think he is oozing with charm. I don't have to like him but I can't deny I see charm there. He may not be attractive to me personally but I can see where he would be to others on account of his charm. So, I guess two people can see the presence of or absense of charisma in the same person.

Edited May 18, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[kujo]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1532145' date='May 18 2008, 05:52 AM']This is technically incorrect. Many of the policies that Obama puts forth (here, I am speaking specifically about his anti-life policies and about nothing else) do perpetuate evil. However, Obama's immoral policies do not make him an "evil" man. To be sure, Obama actually intends for these policies to do good; but despite his best intentions, he is sorely misinformed. I could honestly say that Obama desires to change this country for the better, and I would say that that makes him a very good man. Again, however, he's just doing it all wrong out of a combination of stubbornness and blind ignorance of the rationale that we hold.

I admire Obama for his idealism; you have to admit that it's very refreshing. Now, if only we could get someone who had a similar level of passion, youthful vigor, and romantic idealism who didn't support policies contrary to the Catholic faith ...[/quote]

I happen to agree with you. No matter how immoral his policies are, the man himself is not [u]evil[/u]. We certainly need to pray for the Holy Spirit to move in his heart and change his beliefs when it comes to abortion, he is still a good man who honestly believes his direction is the best way to take this country. Again, when it comes to the life issue, he is unequivocally wrong; however, I am not opposed to establishing diplomatic relations with our enemies. Remember: Reagan and Gorbachev enjoyed a close relationship during their time as heads of state of their country.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1532194' date='May 18 2008, 10:19 AM']Everyone focuses on the abortion issues (which is extremely important) but that's not all there is to Obama's ills. He has zero demonstrable leadership skills, is incredibly inexperienced in politics (being only a senator for a short period of time), and his willingness to pander to groups that have a vocal anti-American agenda (racists and terrorists) is something we should be very, very concerned about. His relationships with these groups are serious. This is not fear-mongering. This is not being melodramatic. This is not over-reaching. This is not making a mountain out of a mole hill. This is not taking something out of context. This is an area of real and present concern for America...and our allies.[/quote]

I accept that he certainly has some dubious ties; however, I am unaware of incidents where he "pandered" to them. Can you post some? If he has, I wanna know about it.

Besides that, the thrust of the argument in favor of voting for Obama despite his inexperience is his judgement; however, I don't think it was "good judgement" to stay at that church of his. So something's gotta give!

[CatherineM]

The charisma thing is something I've wondered about. I haven't seen it yet. Perhaps I'm just not seeing him as much in the news because I'm north of the border. I do worry about people running on a platform of change when they won't say what they plan to change. I mean he could mean to sell all the national parks to pay for social programs, or he could mean to solve the national debt problem by invading Mexico. I realize both are highly unlikely, but my point is, if he doesn't say what he plans to change, then how do we know? Dukakis ran on a platform that he was going to raise taxes, and was against the death penalty and SDI. You knew what he was going to do, what he had done as a long time public servant. We just don't have that kind of track record on Obama, and he isn't saying anything concrete about what he is planning to do. I suspect, that he just doesn't know, and will make it up as he goes along.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1532259' date='May 19 2008, 01:01 AM']He says what they want to hear. That's not charisma. It's just good manipulation tactics. It's something liars and charlatans need to possess...for survival.

I don't know. Maybe you are right, because charisma really is subjective. Only a person who feels charisma from someone can rightfully say, "He has charisma". If another person doesn't feel it then you will say, "This person lacks charisma.". I think it's similar to charm. For example, many people say Brad Pitt is charming and I just have never, ever seen it. I don't get him at all. Granted, I don't like him as a person, but I don't like George Clooney as a person either but he think he is oozing with charm. I don't have to like him but I can't deny I see charm there. He may not be attractive to me personally but I can see where he would be to others on account of his charm. So, I guess two people can see the presence of or absense of charisma in the same person.[/quote]
Hmmm. I'm not sure. All I know is that if I tried to get up on a podium and lead people just by promising them "change" and "hope" nobody would try to develop their own meaning to it. Maybe it's just because I'm a terrible liar, but then again promising people "change" and "hope" isn't really lying per se, it's just being vague on what you actually want to do if you get to power. I suppose you do have to have a certain general likeability to do what Obama does, and I would consider that a type of charisma. I also don't see why that couldn't be a learned trait for political survival.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1532276' date='May 18 2008, 10:40 AM']We just don't have that kind of track record on Obama, and he isn't saying anything concrete about what he is planning to do. I suspect, that he just doesn't know, and will make it up as he goes along.[/quote]

I totally agree.

[Mercy me]

I agree with CatherineM but I am also worried about Obama's charisma. There is no denying that he is drawing young people and his message what ever it is, is resonating with them. For them he he does have some sort of charisma.

I was myself impressed with the way he was appeared to be able to stay so positive while the Clinton mud was slung at him. I think at least compared to Clinton he is likable. That said he is wrong on everything.

[StColette]

Obama reminds me of a car salesman

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1532222' date='May 18 2008, 09:45 AM']Sorry, I just don't see it. What charisma? I'm not saying that b/c I don't like him. I really don't see any charisma. He's not a smiling and friendly person who speaks with passion and conviction when he's giving speeches. He doesn't appear to respect--let alone love--America. He doesn't appear to be able to relate with most Americans--of any race or background. I don't sense gentleness or understanding in him. And he's a liar. And a racist. And a terrorist-coddler. I sense an angry man who, though spoiled and privileged most of his life, carries a bitter chip on his shoulder planted there by people like Jeremiah Wright. Even when he's out meeting the legions of his fans he comes off as haughty and disingenuous. His glad-handing and smiles are forced and only skin-deep. When you see his eyes there is no passion or fire behind him.

Charisma is the last thing I would ever see in Barack Obama.[/quote]

To be sure, I agree with you that Obama is not the man for the job because of his policies. I just want to make sure that this part at least is very clear.

The point of my post was to demonstrate that Obama, as a man, is not evil. His policies might be. He is not. This is a fundamental supposition of the Catholic faith that allows us to take a stand on life issues in the first place: God created all human beings with an innate value that cannot be stripped away from them no matter what they they do or believe; this is one reason why Catholics stand against capitol punishment, even for the most heinous of crimes. Further, it is precisely [b]contrary[/b] to direct biblical analysis: God said that all things were good as he created them, and saved the best for last -- humans (cf. Gen 1).

I do believe that Obama desires to change America for the better. I happen to think that he would actually be successful in changing it for the worse, but this is immaterial to the question. We're talking about his interior desires, here; not his ability to actually lead. Yes, you question my ability to judge his interior desires, but unless you have a very special MRI machine that would allow you to shed some light on the topic, I think you're going to suffer from my same inability to read Mr. Obama's mind. I believe him because I have no reason not to. When someone tells you their beliefs, you might question the validity of those beliefs, but you don't question whether or not the person actually has them -- that's ludicrous. Obama says that he [b]wants[/b] to change the country for the better. I say cool. Great. Me too; I'm a teacher. Then I say, "Oh, but you're going about it the wrong way". I think that this desire to make lots of people's lives better, even if misdirected, is still a very noble thing. I think that this desire is evidence of the goodness that God originally intended Obama for.