An Evangelical Calls The Passion Too Catholic

[Guest proudcatholicmom]

Hi-this is my first post, but I've been lurking for awhile.

I'll introduce myself in another thread. I hope you don't mind me jumping right in to post this here first. I received a reply from Pastor Andy Webb.

Here is his email:

Dear Susan,

Thank you for your letter.

I was educated in a Catholic school and regarding this issue, have studied the Catholic source documents. Respectfully, I would suggest that you go take a closer look at the official teaching of the Roman Catholic church on this subject:

[From the Canons of Trent, 22nd Session, DOCTRINE ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS]

ON THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.

CANON I.--If any one saith, that in the mass a true and proper sacrifice is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema.

CANON II.--If any one saith, that by those words, Do this for the commemoration of me (Luke xxii. 19), Christ did not institute the apostles priests; or, did not ordain that they, and other priests should offer His own body and blood; let him be anathema.

CANON III.--If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a [Page 159] bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.

Trent calls the Mass a "true proper and propitiatory sacrifice," whereby the priest "offers" Christ's "own body and blood" "to GOD." I know that many modern non-Tridentine Catholics (unlike Mel) are uncomfortable with this, but this is the historic teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

This is further affirmed by by the Catechism Issued by order of Pope Pius V to accompany and teach the decrees of the Council of Trent:

The Mass Is The Same Sacrifice As That Of The Cross

We therefore confess that the Sacrifice of the Mass is and ought to be considered one and the same Sacrifice as that of the cross, for the victim is one and the same, namely, Christ our Lord, who offered Himself, once only, a bloody Sacrifice on the altar of the cross. The bloody and unbloody victim are not two, but one victim only, whose Sacrifice is daily renewed in the Eucharist, in obedience to the command of our Lord: Do this for a commemoration of me.

The priest is also one and the same, Christ the Lord; for the ministers who offer Sacrifice, consecrate the holy mysteries, not in their own person, but in that of Christ, as the words of consecration itself show, for the priest does not say: This is the body of Christ, but, This is my body; and thus, acting in the Person of Christ the Lord, he changes the substance of the bread and wine into the true substance of His body and blood.

The Mass A Sacrifice Of Praise, Thanksgiving And Propitiation

This being the case, it must be taught without any hesitation that, as the holy Council (of Trent) has also) explained, the sacred and holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a Sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving only, or a mere commemoration of the Sacrifice performed on the cross, but also truly a propitiatory Sacrifice, by which God is appeased and rendered propitious to us. If, therefore, with a pure heart, a lively faith, and affected with an inward sorrow for our transgressions, we immolate and offer this most holy victim, we shall, without doubt, obtain mercy from the Lord, and grace in time of need; for SO delighted is the Lord with the door of this victim that, bestowing on us the gift of grace and repentance, He pardons our sins. Hence this usual prayer of the Church: As often as the commemoration of this victim is celebrated, so often is the work of our salvation being done; that is to say, through this unbloody Sacrifice flow to us the most plenteous fruits of that bloody victim.

-------------------------------------------

Please let me assure you, I am not opposed to this movie because I hate Catholics. I was raised in a Catholic neighborhood, I attended a Catholic school, and many of my friends today are still members of the Catholic church. I am opposed to this movie because I am convinced it goes against God's commands and teaches falsehoods. Therefore as much as I would like to remain silent - and believe me I would, when members of my flock asked me to give an opinion on it, I studied, considered and prayed and then wrote my assessment, which has in turn been forwarded far beyond my wildest imagination. I did this out of love for the sheep and a desire to be obedient to the God who saved me by his love, and not out of hate for any man.

Over a long period of time and testing, God graciously brought me into His ministry, which is a high calling, a great privilege, and a heavy burden. While I love the sheep that He has given me to under-shepherd, I feel the heavy weight of responsibility for their souls. James warned "My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment." And Paul said in Acts 20, that we could call ourselves guiltless of their blood only in we do not fail to open up to them the whole counsel of God; "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God." (Acts 20:26) As you well know, Christian pastors are not called to deliver their own opinions or their own message, they are to proclaim Christ's commands "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:20) as his ambassadors. That message will be fundamentally gracious because it is a message of mercy in the place of the judgment we deserve, but in order to be true, it must be according to His word. I pray that you will see that the idea of the Lord's Supper being the same sacrifice of Christ on the Cross as it is taught by the Roman Catholic church is contrary to the one rule of God for our faith, life, and practice - the Word of God - and therefore must be denied.

If you want to correspond further about any of this I am more than willing to do so.

Your Servant in Christ,

Pastor Andy Webb

[Jake Huether]

Wow! He read all that, and it still isn't clicking for him. What a shame.

May the Holy Spirit move him.

[Anna]

My sentiments exactly, Jake...

And then, the 45 year old Catholic woman that I am would add, "Oh, that pompous ass! He actually thinks that he knows the Truth better than the Apostles and the Church Christ founded!

He reads the Scriptures that we recorded, but interprets them for himself, and gives himself license to preach and teach of his own understanding and accord, and not of Christ's Church, in direct contradiction to the very Scriptures he quotes! Lord, have mercy! 'His sheep,' indeed!" Pastor Webb is so full of himself, I am nauseated.

Too Catholic?

Please define that term!!!

If there is anything--ANYTHING--wrong in this world, it is that we are not Catholic ENOUGH.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Trent calls the Mass a "true proper and propitiatory sacrifice," whereby the priest "offers" Christ's "own body and blood" "to GOD." I know that many modern non-Tridentine Catholics (unlike Mel) are uncomfortable with this, but this is the historic teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

HELLO!? Someone pass the barf bag--quickly, please!!!

That is THE sickest remark I've heard yet coming from a protestant who grew up around Catholics and still has some he calls friends (har har, that makes him an expert on Catholicism!)

The above quote just shows Pastor Webbs ignorance of the Catholic Church, of Scripture, and of Jesus Christ Himself, (who he claims to represent, follow, and pass along 'true' as opposed to Catholic 'false' teachings!)

Show me a Catholic who is 'uncomfortable' with the fact that the Mass is a true and proper propitiatory sacrifice of Christ's own body and blood, and I'll show you a ....protestant!!!!!!!

This is the very ESSENCE of Catholicism: the Passion of Christ...that He laid down His life for us, and left us a memorial of His Passion, that we, too may enter into It, have a share of It, partake of It, and offer It to the Father for the salvation of the world! The Apostles believed it! They taught it!

What is the man-made doctrine of Mr. Webb, that supercedes the doctrine of Christ and His Church?!!!

This man is dense!

And pompous.

ooooooooooooh! :angry:

[Jake Huether]

HELLO!? Someone pass the barf bag--quickly, please!!!

That is THE sickest remark I've heard yet coming from a protestant who grew up around Catholics and still has some he calls friends (har har, that makes him an expert on Catholicism!)

The above quote just shows Pastor Webbs ignorance of the Catholic Church, of Scripture, and of Jesus Christ Himself, (who he claims to represent, follow, and pass along 'true' as opposed to Catholic 'false' teachings!)

Show me a Catholic who is 'uncomfortable' with the fact that the Mass is a true and proper propitiatory sacrifice of Christ's own body and blood, and I'll show you a ....protestant!!!!!!!

This is the very ESSENCE of Catholicism: the Passion of Christ...that He laid down His life for us, and left us a memorial of His Passion, that we, too may enter into It, have a share of It, partake of It, and offer It to the Father for the salvation of the world! The Apostles believed it! They taught it!

What is the man-made doctrine of Mr. Webb, that supercedes the doctrine of Christ and His Church?!!!

This man is dense!

And pompous.

ooooooooooooh!

AMEN!

[dUSt]

Well, he got it right that the mass is a true sacrifice. He proved that thoroughly--and that's exactly what Catholics believe. What he said in his "review" is that the mass is a re-sacrifice, as if we keep crucifying Christ over and over again. What Mr Webb fails to realize is that every mass is a participation in the original, one-and-only sacrifice made on Calvalry. Christ instituted this so that all generations could participate in his final sacrifice.

proudcatholicmom,

I'm encouraged that you took the time to write him. I think we should all write him and explain how he's misrepresenting Catholic teaching. Unfortunately, just because one goes to Catholic school and has Catholic friends, doesn't make one a Catholic theologian--better suited to interpret doctrine than the Church herself.

[dUSt]

I wrote him this letter. We shall see if he replies...

Mr Webb,

May the love of Christ be with you.

I recently read your article regarding Mel Gibson's new movie. I respect your opinion regarding the movie, and am not writing you about that. What I'm concerned about is your misrepresentation of Catholic teaching.

In your review, you stated, "The script of The Passion of Christ was specifically intended to link the crucifixion of Christ with what Roman Catholics believe is the re-sacrificing of Christ that occurs in the mass." Catholics do not believe Christ is RE-sacrificed during mass. This is a completely false statement. It makes the reader think that Catholics believe that we re-crucify Jesus, over and over again. The mass is a participation in the original, one-and-only sacrifice made on Calvalry. It is a real sacrifice, but it is not a RE-sacrifice. Please change your article to reflect this. To intentionally leave up a false statement is uncharitable, and violates our Lord's commandments.

I also found another unfair statement in your article, "The Passion of Christ does not even make any pretence of teaching the active obedience of Christ, the entire notion of which is alien to Roman Catholic theology." I'm not concerned over the comments made about the movie, but again, you misrepresent Catholic theology. Active obedience to Christ is CENTRAL to Catholic theology. By you stating that it is alien to Catholic theology makes you guilty of dishonesty--which is probably not your intent.

If you wish, I can put you in contact with Catholic priests and scholars to help you better understand Catholic doctrine, but until you can fairly and honestly represent Catholic teaching, I ask that you please remove your false statements regarding the Catholic Church.

Thank you and God bless,

Dustin Sieber

http://www.phatmass.com

[Iacobus]

I skimed over the article. He sounlds like he rejects all Catholic teachings. People like him can make me so mad.

[Seatbelt Blue]

I wrote him this letter. We shall see if he replies...

Mr Webb,

May the love of Christ be with you.

I recently read your article regarding Mel Gibson's new movie. I respect your opinion regarding the movie, and am not writing you about that. What I'm concerned about is your misrepresentation of Catholic teaching.

In your review, you stated, "The script of The Passion of Christ was specifically intended to link the crucifixion of Christ with what Roman Catholics believe is the re-sacrificing of Christ that occurs in the mass." Catholics do not believe Christ is RE-sacrificed during mass. This is a completely false statement. It makes the reader think that Catholics believe that we re-crucify Jesus, over and over again. The mass is a participation in the original, one-and-only sacrifice made on Calvalry. It is a real sacrifice, but it is not a RE-sacrifice. Please change your article to reflect this. To intentionally leave up a false statement is uncharitable, and violates our Lord's commandments.

I also found another unfair statement in your article, "The Passion of Christ does not even make any pretence of teaching the active obedience of Christ, the entire notion of which is alien to Roman Catholic theology." I'm not concerned over the comments made about the movie, but again, you misrepresent Catholic theology. Active obedience to Christ is CENTRAL to Catholic theology. By you stating that it is alien to Catholic theology makes you guilty of dishonesty--which is probably not your intent.

If you wish, I can put you in contact with Catholic priests and scholars to help you better understand Catholic doctrine, but until you can fairly and honestly represent Catholic teaching, I ask that you please remove your false statements regarding the Catholic Church.

Thank you and God bless,

Dustin Sieber

http://www.phatmass.com

dust, such a wonderful reply! You are quite successful at showing the love of Christ in your rebuke.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

yea nice job dust. I would of emailed him too but im all emailed out after our Pastor Ed adventures.

Post his reply when and if you get one.

God Bless

[Anna]

dUSt,

That is a very kind, generous letter to Mr. Webb.

I'd write, but I couldn't begin to contain my disgust. I've known many who attended Catholic schools with me, who now diss the Church and belong to some other sect. Going to a Catholic school, indeed, does not make one Catholic, nor does it necessarily help one to understand Catholic doctrine. For that, one must be totally open to the Truth that Christ imparted; not the "truth" as we might like it to be.

I've emailed several friends with your link to Pastor Webb's website, and hopefully they'll email him also. If my jumbled thoughts ever gel, I'll jot him off a good one, too, you can be sure!

One thing I'd like to know is, why is it ok for Evangelicals to convert Catholics to protestantism, but it's not ok for protestants to convert to Catholicism! And make no bones about it, he is a Catholic-hater. He may preach that he loves us, but he hates our beliefs. He calls them false. He doesn't love that which he thinks is false, now, does he? So, he is a Catholic hater, imho.

Pax Christi. <><