Charism? Speaking In Tongues?

[Maggyie]

[quote name='mortify' post='1530268' date='May 16 2008, 12:13 PM']I thought "speaking in tongues" meant either being miraculously gifted with the ability to speak another language, or being able to somehow communicate with angles. As far as I understand what we see today as speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc are things that originated in the Pentecostal movement and then found their way into Catholicism.[/quote]

St. Paul refers to the "tongues of angels." The standard explanation for unrecognizable languages in the modern Charismatic movement is that basically they are using the language of angels to praise God.

[LouisvilleFan]

It can mean that too, but Paul also speaks about speaking in tongues and says that its practice should be controlled because outsiders don't understand what people are saying when they speak in tongues.

Edit: Posted this at the same time as the above post, so didn't mean to repeat the same point

Edited May 16, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Noel's angel]

We have a small prayer group in our parish, and some of them sometimes 'speak in tongues' but they won't socialise with other people. I'm sure there are some people who may speak in tongues, but I think a lot of people make it up. People will do what they want. If they want to be able to speak in tongues, they'll convince themselves that they can.

[Maggyie]

I was doing some reading today and found that the Holy Father just spoke at a Bishops' seminar on the topic of the "movements" -

[quote]Beginning with the theme of the seminar that has just concluded - a phrase that the pope had addressed to the German bishops in 2006, "Approach the movements with great love" - the pope exhorted the bishops to "approach with great love the movements and new communities . . . in order to gain an adequate understanding of their reality, without superficial impressions or reductionist judgments". A number of times, the pope repeated that "the ecclesial movements and the new communities are not a problem or an extra risk, added to our already weighty responsibilities. No! They are a gift from the Lord, a precious resource to enrich with their charism as the entire Christian community . . . Difficulties or misunderstandings on particular issues do not bring the right of isolation".

What might be feared is a journey along parallel lines, each for himself, the bishops on one side, the movements on the other. This would mean an impoverishing of both. Thus Benedict XVI exhorts the pastors to "a service of discernment" and to "correction" of the values of the movements, and at the same time to resist "[b]the temptation of making uniform what the Holy Spirit wants to be multiform[/b], to contribute to the building and growth of the one Body of Christ, which the Spirit himself makes firm in unity".[/quote] (Emphasis mine)

[url="http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12283&size=A"]Link[/url]

Edited May 18, 2008 by Maggie

[Apotheoun]

I'm not really all that interested in the so-called Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. In fact, most of the Charismatics that I've known have tended to be rather Protestant in their theology, and -- as a former Protestant -- that has always been a big problem, since I find Protestantism boring.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1530450' date='May 16 2008, 02:54 PM']We have a small prayer group in our parish, and some of them sometimes 'speak in tongues' but they won't socialise with other people. I'm sure there are some people who may speak in tongues, but I think a lot of people make it up. People will do what they want. If they want to be able to speak in tongues, they'll convince themselves that they can.[/quote]

You can think that all you want, and they can make it up all they want (if that is actually the case, which nobody knows but God), but the truth is the Holy Spirit does offer the gift of tongues to some believers for the good of the Church. Just because a gift is abused doesn't mean we censor it, like Puritans censored alcohol and Shakers censored sex.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1532328' date='May 18 2008, 02:04 PM']I'm not really all that interested in the so-called Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. In fact, most of the Charismatics that I've known have tended to be rather Protestant in their theology, and -- as a former Protestant -- that has always been a big problem, since I find Protestantism boring.[/quote]

If every Catholic you knew was basically a nominal Christian who only went through the motions for Mass and lived a secular lifestyle the rest of the week, would you figure all Catholics must be like that?

Edited May 19, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1533011' date='May 18 2008, 07:02 PM']If every Catholic you knew was basically a nominal Christian who only went through the motions for Mass and lived a secular lifestyle the rest of the week, would you figure all Catholics must be like that?[/quote]
Such a person would not be a good Catholic.

But your comparison is a poor one, because my distrust of the Charismatic movement is founded upon the Protestant holiness theology that is its source.

[Apotheoun]

I expressed my views about the "Charistmatic" movement in a couple of posts from a few years ago, and I haven't changed my position since that time:

[quote][size=3]In the Western theological tradition a distinction is made between grace which is called gratiae gratum faciens, that is, the grace that makes one holy and pleasing to God (also known as sanctifying grace), and that which is called gratiae gratis datae, that is, grace in the form of particular gifts given in order to edify the Church and sanctify others. The latter "type" of grace, is further divided into ordinary (hierarchic) and extraordinary (charismatic) gifts, and as far as the ordinary gifts are concerned, they are intrinsically connected to the ecclesiastical hierarchy and the priestly, prophetic, and kingly role of the ordained ministers of the Church; while the extraordinary or charismatic gifts can be given to anyone within the Church. Now, obviously the first "type" of grace (i.e., gratiae gratum faciens) is necessary for salvation, because a man must be in a state of grace in order to be saved; while the latter "type" of grace (gratiae gratis datae), although important in its own way -- especially in the form of the hierarchic gifts mentioned in association with sacred orders -- is not absolutely necessary in the same way that sanctifying grace is necessary for salvation. In fact a person can be in a state of mortal sin and still receive the gifts of grace "gratis datae," and that is why it is vital that a man not focus upon the extraordinary charismatic gifts, nor even seek them out per se, but seek instead God's gift of sanctifying (i.e., deifying) grace. Now, if a man receives any extraordinary manifestation of God's presence given for the edification of others he should accept it in humility and use it only for God's purposes (bearing in mind that it is extraordinary), and not in order to draw attention to himself, nor to rejoice in the gift itself, but to rejoice only in God (the giver of all good things).

That being said, the concern that I have in connection with the charismatic gifts -- as they tend to be experienced today -- is that there is an inordinate focus upon oneself as the recipient of the gift. Thus, there seems to be a self-aggrandizing focus today, which sees the extraordinary manifestation of a gift as somehow making the person receiving it an "important person" within the community (or prayer group). In my own experience with "Charismatics" I have often seen a tendency toward a desire for things that are sensationalistic, that is, a desire for that which is extraordinary, simply because it is extraordinary and because it somehow makes a man feel important in relation to those around him. Moreover, it must always be borne in mind that the charismatic gifts are extraordinary, not ordinary, and so to focus upon them is to emphasize a minor gift over the most important gift of all, that is, sanctification or what the East calls theosis. Now in saying this I am reminded of the words of St. John of the Cross, who, in connection with extraordinary gifts of vision, once said: "[Now] since these imaginative apprehensions, visions, and other forms or species are presented through some image or particular idea, individuals should neither feed upon them nor encumber themselves with them. And this is true whether these visions be false and diabolical or if they be recognized as authentic and from God. Neither should people desire to accept them or keep them. Thus these persons can remain detached, divested, pure, simple, and without any mode or method as the union demands." [St. John of the Cross, The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book II, Chapter 16] St. John gives further warnings later on in the third book of the Ascent (see Chapters 31 and 32) when he speaks about the dangers associated with the exercise of the charismatic gifts, and there are three dangers in particular: (1) the danger of deceiving others or of being deceived, (2) the danger to the soul "with respect to faith," and (3) the danger of vainglory or some other type of vanity (See Ch. 31, no. 1). Thus, St. John clearly warns against rejoicing in the charismatic gifts, and instructs the person receiving such a gift to use it with extreme caution. Now, in my own experience of the modern charismatic movement there seems to be a focus upon rejoicing in the gift itself, even if it serves no purpose in edifying others; and in addition, there seems to be a desire (at least on the part of some) to draw attention to the recipient of the gift as if he is somehow special, and this shows a real lack of spiritual maturity. Finally, it is important to remember that the real focus of the spiritual life is God Himself, and so a man must not focus upon the gifts that he believes he has received from God (whether real or imagined), because he can receive these extraordinary gifts even while he is in a state of mortal sin.[/size][/quote]

My response to the assertion made by some people at this forum several years ago that the spirituality of the Charismatic movement is related to the theological tradition of the Byzantine Churches:

[quote][size=3]There is nothing Eastern about the modern charismatic movement, and in fact quite the contrary, it is based upon an utterly foreign theology that is inimical to Byzantine spirituality. The modern charismatic movement is founded upon the holiness and pentecostal movements of 19th and 20th century Protestantism, and has nothing to do with the spirituality of the Hesychastic mystics of the East, which is always focused upon the reintegration of mind and heart in prayer through dispassion and ascesis, and which has no interest in sensationalistic displays of so-called "charismatic" gifts. The Hesychastic "Prayer of the Heart" is focused upon entering into communion with God by participating in His uncreated energies, and this should not be confused with the modern emotionalism of the charismatic movement in the Western Catholic Church, or in the Protestant ecclesial communities that gave birth to this movement in the first place.

Furthermore, I must emphasize the fact that it is not even possible to understand Eastern mystical experience without first understanding and accepting the Triadological distinctions made within the theological tradition of the Byzantine Church. Now this, of course, necessarily entails accepting the fundamental realities of essence (ousia), person (hypostasis), and energy (energeia) in God, while also accepting the synergistic communion that is made possible by the incarnation of the eternal Logos, because it is only through the sacraments instituted by God incarnate -- which have the effect of extending His saving action throughout history until He returns at the end of the age -- that man can experience a true mystical encounter with the tri-hypostatic Godhead. Thus, the use of terms like "fire" and "light," and other terms of that kind, which may be common to the charismatic movement and the Byzantine tradition, reveals only superficial similarities between the two theological approaches. That being said, it is clear that the charismatic movement presently popular in the Latin Church is basically a modern Western movement, which is founded upon the anti-sacramental theology of some of the more radical groups that came out of the 16th century Protestant Reformation, and as such it has nothing in common with the Byzantine doctrinal and spiritual tradition.

Finally, I would simply reiterate what I said earlier in this thread, that is, that a Byzantine Christian should avoid the charismatic movement, because it does not represent the liturgical, spiritual, or doctrinal tradition of his sui juris Church.[/size][/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='prose' post='1529443' date='May 15 2008, 12:23 PM']I have heard it explained to me this way (which made sense)

PRAYING in tongues is how your soul speaks to God. It is a stand-alone gift. It is from us to God.

SPEAKING in tongues will always have someone else given a gift of interpretation. It is from God to us.[/quote]
Interesting distinction. I'll keep that in mind.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1532328' date='May 18 2008, 01:04 PM']I'm not really all that interested in the so-called Charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. In fact, most of the Charismatics that I've known have tended to be rather Protestant in their theology, and -- as a former Protestant -- that has always been a big problem, since I find Protestantism boring.[/quote]

lawl, boring. You're an interesting fellow. Btw, I like the posts you quoted from a couple years back. Quite informative. Thanks

[Autumn Dusk]

This may sound funny...but on occasion I've been blessed with the gift of toungs....in sign-language. I used to know several deaf and hard of hearing kids...who couldn't fully participate in the youth group, esp worship, because they couldn't hear. And while I know a medium about of sign I know no where NEAR enough to understand long conversations, moreover translate.

Yet, I have. Its not like I'm being operated by strings...I just know how so my brain tells my hand.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1533142' date='May 18 2008, 11:29 PM']Such a person would not be a good Catholic.

But your comparison is a poor one, because my distrust of the Charismatic movement is founded upon the Protestant holiness theology that is its source.[/quote]

I thought its source was the Holy Spirit ;-)

And this stuff pre-dates Protestant holiness theology by about 1,900 years.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Th2dnSsXw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Th2dnSsXw[/url]

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1533172' date='May 19 2008, 04:16 AM']This may sound funny...but on occasion I've been blessed with the gift of toungs....in sign-language. I used to know several deaf and hard of hearing kids...who couldn't fully participate in the youth group, esp worship, because they couldn't hear. And while I know a medium about of sign I know no where NEAR enough to understand long conversations, moreover translate.

Yet, I have. Its not like I'm being operated by strings...I just know how so my brain tells my hand.[/quote]
I'd say that qualifies - quite amazing how God works.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1533153' date='May 18 2008, 11:43 PM']I expressed my views about the "Charistmatic" movement in a couple of posts from a few years ago, and I haven't changed my position since that time:[/quote]

If I'm reading your quote correctly, you're not denying the existence of extraordinary or charismatic gifts. You take issue with the errors of the modern Charismatic Movement in focusing too much on the gifts and the recipient and not enough on God as the Giver.

I was under the impression that you don't believe in the existence of charismatic gifts.

Edited May 19, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Seven77]

New Outpourings of the Spirit: Movements in the Church (Hardcover)
[url="http://www.amazon.com/New-Outpourings-Spirit-Movements-Church/dp/158617181X/ref=pd_sim_b_img_5"]http://www.amazon.com/New-Outpourings-Spir...=pd_sim_b_img_5[/url]

Then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote positively about the Charismatic Movement...