Charism? Speaking In Tongues?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1529353' date='May 15 2008, 11:44 AM']The charasmatic events I have been attended have only moved me to laughs no edification. I find it ridiculous. Speaking in tongues and other practices mean nothing to me. The church may approve such things, but to me they border on circus.
When the Holy Spirt decides to bestow some wisdom on me, I pray He speaks English or I aint listening.[/quote]

The Church doesn't approve Pentecostalism, which is a Protestant movement. The Church simply approves what is in Scripture, and circus stuff is definitely not Catholic.

[Deb]

[b]1 Corinthians

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. [/b]


You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

[b]But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. [/b]

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. or by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?

[b]But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.[/b]

If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.

And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? [b][i]But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.


Acts 7:50-52

[/i][/b]You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Acts 8

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

[prose]

I have heard it explained to me this way (which made sense)

PRAYING in tongues is how your soul speaks to God. It is a stand-alone gift. It is from us to God.

SPEAKING in tongues will always have someone else given a gift of interpretation. It is from God to us.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Deb' post='1529371' date='May 15 2008, 12:05 PM']Will you let us know when he does?[/quote]

Ouch!

The "exterior" gifts of speaking in tongues or prophesying don't profit us anything if they don't come with the far greater gifts of charity and patience. Please don't think this is just aimed at you, if anything I am typing it out for my own benefit

Many people, like alicemary, don't "get anything out of" charismatic prayer meetings or tongues etc. This isn't a bad thing. The charismatic movement, in its externals, is not meant for the entire Church; we are all called to accept the Holy Spirit, but for the majority of Catholics this doesn't mean being "batpized in the Holy Spirit" or experiencing the more exotic gifts.

I know when I discover a wonderful devotional or spiritual practice that really helps my interior life, I want to share it with other people, after all, if I am benefiting I want the people I care about to reap the good fruit, too! But at the same time I have to realize that just because it is helpful to me doesn't mean it is for everyone. I love the Divine Mercy Chaplet, for instance, but there are some people who can't stand the DMC (too repetitive, etc) and that doesn't mean they are a bad Catholic or are "stiff-necked." When you have had such a wonderful experience it is easy to take it personally when other people don't like it so well. But souls have different complexions, as George Elliot put it.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Maggie

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='prose' post='1529443' date='May 15 2008, 05:23 PM']I have heard it explained to me this way (which made sense)

PRAYING in tongues is how your soul speaks to God. It is a stand-alone gift. It is from us to God.

SPEAKING in tongues will always have someone else given a gift of interpretation. It is from God to us.[/quote]
Yeah, that's how I'd understood it. I've only heard tongues w/ interpretation once (at least I think that's what was going on, though I guess the other guy could have been saying his own thing & not interpreting).

[let_go_let_God]

In my own experience, I have known many people blessed with Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit. They don't always know what to do with them but realize that they have them for the greater good of the Church.

Many gifts are based of the "primary" Gifts of the Spirit, Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Fortitude, Counsel, Fear of the Lord, and Piety. All gifts are based from these seven.

Now for a gift being "charismatic" in nature, as I understand, means that the gift approaches others or is more "out there" than gifts that are usually shared between you and God. My parents have commented that before our generation, those who have been born, raised, Confirmed, et cetera since the Second Vatican Council, have been more open to gifts and to sharing the gifts that have been bestowed upon us by the Holy Spirit.

My two cents, I guess...

God bless-

LGLG

[Deb]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1529453' date='May 15 2008, 12:31 PM']Ouch!

The "exterior" gifts of speaking in tongues or prophesying don't profit us anything if they don't come with the far greater gifts of charity and patience. Please don't think this is just aimed at you, if anything I am typing it out for my own benefit

Many people, like alicemary, don't "get anything out of" charismatic prayer meetings or tongues etc. This isn't a bad thing. The charismatic movement, in its externals, is not meant for the entire Church; we are all called to accept the Holy Spirit, but for the majority of Catholics this doesn't mean being "batpized in the Holy Spirit" or experiencing the more exotic gifts.

I know when I discover a wonderful devotional or spiritual practice that really helps my interior life, I want to share it with other people, after all, if I am benefiting I want the people I care about to reap the good fruit, too! But at the same time I have to realize that just because it is helpful to me doesn't mean it is for everyone. I love the Divine Mercy Chaplet, for instance, but there are some people who can't stand the DMC (too repetitive, etc) and that doesn't mean they are a bad Catholic or are "stiff-necked." When you have had such a wonderful experience it is easy to take it personally when other people don't like it so well. But souls have different complexions, as George Elliot put it.[/quote]

Many people do not get anything out of the gifts of the holy spirit. One must be receptive to the Holy Spirit in the first place. A priest said that what he discerns from people who come for prayer, even though they are there, the spirit isn't flowing because the person is afraid, they don't believe, they are too closed off to even imagine letting themselves go (my mother) and there were a couple other reasons.

I do not consider opening myself to the Holy Spirit a devotion. I don't dismiss the actions of the Holy Spirit in my life as something I can accept or not. I can refuse them and turn away but, I would be turning my back on God. He came up with this, not me and it wasn't a little prayer that has been handed down.

This was given to us by our Lord Jesus. This was a powerful and incredible gift and it certainly was meant for the entire church. The church just forgot that somewhere along the way. I didn't even know what the Holy Spirit was a year ago. My introduction was definitely an eye opener.

If someone doesn't want to unleash the power of the Holy Spirit, that is certainly their right to refuse God's gift. But, when they refer to it as making them laugh, is circus like and then says that if God speaks to them it had best be in English or they "ain't" listening and that they "do not believe in it," they are saying more than that is a devotion they don't care for.
To not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit is to deny the Holy Spirit and to deny the very thing that built up the Catholic Church in the first place. I believe Jesus had something to say about denying the Spirit of God.


I know I am being converted and all and I get really enthusiastic about everything our Lord has done for me. I so want everyone to be able to experience the incredible peace and joy and love that flows through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I don't think you can get that if you don't really understand that they are just sitting there waiting for each person to grab them. You have to know that they exist and you have to believe they exist.

My conversion began, then I was led to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and I received much grace, THEN I was confirmed. I go to Mass at least once a month that is dedicated for spiritual and physical healing and each time, I am renewed. I can't imagine not doing that anymore than I could imagine not going to Mass every day or missing adoration time. Everything moves me foward and gives me knowledge and truth of my Lord Jesus.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Deb

[Lilllabettt]

[i]
Many people do not get anything out of the gifts of the holy spirit. One must be receptive to the Holy Spirit in the first place. [...] The church just forgot that somewhere along the way. [...]
[/i]
Just because a person doesn't persue or experience charismatic gifts does not mean they are closed off to the Holy Spirit. Some people spend their whole lives in dryness, faithfully serving the God they cannot see or feel. Their desolation does not mean they are somehow less holy, or less open.

Is it really likely that the Church just "forgot" this stuff? Isn't it more likely that certain graces are assigned to certain times/places/persons in Salvation History?

[i]This was a powerful and incredible gift and it certainly was meant for the entire church. [/i]

God gives gifts to everyone. Those gifts typically described as "charismatic" are EXTRAordinary (tongues, etc.) They are meant for the [i]common good [/i]of the Church. That does not mean that everyone is meant to experience them.

[i]"To not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit is to deny the Holy Spirit and to deny the very thing that built up the Catholic Church in the first place [...] You have to know that they exist and you have to believe they exist."[/i]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit include Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Fear of the Lord, Piety, Counsel and Fortitude. I'm pretty sure alicemary believes in these things. She might doubt the gifts as interpreted/practiced by the modern charismatic movement. For example, I wouldn't be suprised if alicemary believed in the biblical description of Pentecost, when the apostles were understood by people who spoke different languages. But perhaps she is more skeptical of the angelic language, unintelligble to anyone present, which is commonly referred to as tongues.

[Maggyie]

Deb,

Your zeal and enthusiasm jumps off the page! I am so glad that the Lord has blessed you and that you are open to following His lead.

I experienced similar consolations when I came back to the Church. Returning to Jesus feels good, doesn't it? Don't feel bad or despair when you eventually stop "feeling" the peace, joy and love of the Lord. This is normal and it usually signifies spiritual progress. Often people who have previously spoken in tongues, etc, no longer experience this gift or stop experiencing it for a time. I am sure you have heard this before, but take care not to fall into the trap of associating sensible consolation with spiritual enlightenment!

Zeal can sometimes make us less gentle than Our Lord Himself would be. That is understandable and I am sure He smiles at our misdirected vigor and turns everything to work for the good.

You are correct that being open to the Holy Spirit is not correctly categorized as "a devotion." However, actual participation in the Charismatic movement specifically is similar to participation in the Fatima movement, or the New Liturgical Movement, or Focolare, or Communion and Liberation. There are many ways of being open to the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic movement is a wonderful way! But it is not the only one.

One of the dangers of the new movements which have sprung up in the Church after the Second Vatican Council is that they could devolve into factions and wound the Church. This happens when people in one movement believe that they have the "true way" to the Lord and that if the whole Church does not capituate to their practices or way of life, then these non-co-operators are inferior Catholic Christians. I believe Pope Benedict wrote about this a little in his days as a cardinal. This danger can be mitigated by episcopal oversight and guidance, which the Church is anxious to provide.

Speak to those at your church who have been involved in the Charismatic movement for many years and I am sure these mature leaders would tell you that folks like alicemary are not denying the Holy Spirit, their souls simply encounter God in a different way. The priest you mention, who said that some people are too afraid to "let the Spirit flow" does not sound that great to tell you the truth. I strongly dislike when people say they have "discerned" things about other people's feelings or motivations. That's not the Holy Spirit telling him "Ooo, I won't come down there tonight, that person is too uptight!" which is ridiculous, as though the Holy Spirit was like television reception or a picky party guest.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Maggie

[salterrae]

JM + JT

I just freaked out a little when watching since one of the guests said something along the lines of:

"Well, I told her: 'Yes, you've been baptised, but have you been baptised in the Spirit?'"

It [u]seemed[/u] a little too... [i]detached[/i] from the Catholic Church. :/

Edited May 15, 2008 by salterrae

[Deb]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1529768' date='May 15 2008, 05:11 PM']Deb,

Your zeal and enthusiasm jumps off the page! I am so glad that the Lord has blessed you and that you are open to following His lead.

I experienced similar consolations when I came back to the Church. Returning to Jesus feels good, doesn't it? Don't feel bad or despair when you eventually stop "feeling" the peace, joy and love of the Lord. This is normal and it usually signifies spiritual progress. Often people who have previously spoken in tongues, etc, no longer experience this gift or stop experiencing it for a time. I am sure you have heard this before, but take care not to fall into the trap of associating sensible consolation with spiritual enlightenment!

Zeal can sometimes make us less gentle than Our Lord Himself would be. That is understandable and I am sure He smiles at our misdirected vigor and turns everything to work for the good.

You are correct that being open to the Holy Spirit is not correctly categorized as "a devotion." However, actual participation in the Charismatic movement specifically is similar to participation in the Fatima movement, or the New Liturgical Movement, or Focolare, or Communion and Liberation. There are many ways of being open to the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic movement is a wonderful way! But it is not the only one.

One of the dangers of the new movements which have sprung up in the Church after the Second Vatican Council is that they could devolve into factions and wound the Church. This happens when people in one movement believe that they have the "true way" to the Lord and that if the whole Church does not capituate to their practices or way of life, then these non-co-operators are inferior Catholic Christians. I believe Pope Benedict wrote about this a little in his days as a cardinal. This danger can be mitigated by episcopal oversight and guidance, which the Church is anxious to provide.

Speak to those at your church who have been involved in the Charismatic movement for many years and I am sure these mature leaders would tell you that folks like alicemary are not denying the Holy Spirit, their souls simply encounter God in a different way. The priest you mention, who said that some people are too afraid to "let the Spirit flow" does not sound that great to tell you the truth. I strongly dislike when people say they have "discerned" things about other people's feelings or motivations. That's not the Holy Spirit telling him "Ooo, I won't come down there tonight, that person is too uptight!" which is ridiculous, as though the Holy Spirit was like television reception or a picky party guest.[/quote]

Yes I do know that I tend to go overboard when expressing my religious conversion and when I get all excited about it, I do not always use the fiddler between my brain and my mouth. (in this case, my hands)

I believe that the graces the Lord is pouring out upon me now are so that I will be able to be strong in my beliefs and my love for him, when the consolations end. They may or may not end depending what path God will lay out for me. I would rather die than go back to who I was before the Lord rescued me.

I do not have the gift of tongues, healing, discernment of spirits, prophecy or gifts that as I see it, can be used for the building up for the church. I do know people who have those gifts. They use them for building up the church. I was given the gift of faith and knowledge so that I can know, without doubt, the truth of the Word and I firmly believe it is my duty to proclaim that truth. So far, the Lord is using me as an example of the transforming power of his Love. He takes those he has extreme pity on, the worst of the worst and he turns them to follow him and him only. It is a beautiful thing.

I cannot say I have the true way to the Lord or even if there is another way. This is the only way I have known. I was dragged to Medjugorje, my conversion began there, When I got home I was brought to a healing mass where every wound of my life was removed from me, freeing me from any concern with my past and the Holy Spirit began his work in transforming me into a completely different person. That is the way I was brought to the Lord.

This is the way the Lord has taken me. Interestingly enough, the Lord then brought me to a Charismatic Church twelve miles from my house (the one I joined is four blocks away) where he performed a miracle for me during communion and made it clear that that was where I was go to go church. There are still occasions where I question some of the before and after mass music though.
This church has an amazing respect and reverence for the Liturgy of the Mass and the Eucharist far exceeds what I have witnessed in other "traditional" churches. The only difference is that parishioners are urged to develop a personal relationship with God. To pray always for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The way to obtain that is to empty one's self and make the Lord the center of your life. The way taught in my church is Mass always, once a week at the minimum. Eucharistic adoration. Respect for the Eucharist. (children bow when the walk past the door of the perpetual adoration chapel) Freely giving of your time, your treasure and your talents for the benefit of the parish community and those less fortunate. Homilies that actually discuss sin and how much it offends the Lord. Homilies that teach and are always within the confines of the readings and the doctrine of the church. A church with many missions and programs and no debt. Spiritual retreats.

I have not witnessed anyone I have met involved in the Charismatic movement, as it is done in my area, looking on anyone else as an inferior Catholic. In fact, I only even discuss charisms when other people try to make the charismatic movement look like it is a group of deranged, irreligious people or refer to it as a Circus. That tells me that they are the ones who assume that people who go to charismatic churches or prayer meetings etc are the inferior Catholics. Then, I feel I have to set the record straight. If a person feels like they are inferior when around people who are in the Charismatic movement, that is coming from something within them, not us. Do I wish that every soul could experience what I do? You bet. Do I think that is possible. Yes. Do I think it is worth everyone to see if it is possible? Yes. Then again, I think every person on this earth should know the blessing of being a Catholic.

As for the priest who was talking about things he discerns from time to time, he is a priest who I feel will be a saint some day. (if he isn't already) His discussing this came in a lecture on being open to God. If you come and asked to be prayed over and you do not believe for one second that God even exists, it is doubtful you will receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. If you are so terrified that you may actually rest in spirit, you won't. (again, my mother) She has even told me that she thought she was going to fall so she stepped back so she would not be prayed over anymore. She is too proper and would be embarrassed.

So, you just let your disbelief in the charisms come out by saying you strongly dislike anyone who says they can discern. You might want to check out Fr. Zlatko Sudac. You might want to read up on St. Pio. You might not want to judge any priest too quickly who has the gift of discernment and prophecy or the reading of souls. All gifts of the Spirit and just as alive today as they were 2,000 years ago. There is no mandate that one has to believe in any of it. But, if you have seen and then you don't believe, you have to answer to God. I have seen and I do believe. I will tell everyone I can get to listen to me about it too. I think I am supposed to.

[Lilllabettt]

EDIT: This is Maggie, my sister forgot to log out!

Deb, I did not let my disbelief in the charisms "come out." In the past I have received some of the more dramatic gifts myself. I am not against the Charismatic movement at all and I have even participated all though not deeply.

I do not strongly dislike when people can discern, I strongly dislike when people claim to be able to discern other people's feelings or motivations. Surely everyone has run into the Sincere Christian Friend who will explain to you that the Lord really laid it on their heart to tell you XYZ, or the Lord has helped them to discern that the deep seated psychological basis for your behavior has its roots in XYZ. And you can sense that your Sincere Christian Friend should more accurately be called your Insecure and Somewhat Manipulative Christian Friend, who for some reason can't give you their honest opinion without presenting it as a command from on high.

I hope that your priest will be a saint one day (may we all!) but quite frankly it doesn't require the ability to read souls to be able to tell that people are uncomfortable. So your priest, noticing that some newcomers are not at ease with a particular prayer style, "discerns" (IOW makes up his own mind) that they must be closed to the Holy Spirit, rejecting God's gifts, etc. etc. Not only that but the presence of these doubters at the same meeting as the prayer team wrecks the Spirit's flow. Sort of the same way a medium supposedly can't conjure spirits if there is an unbeliever in the room. This is silly and I am sure the priest meant to say something else and just didn't phrase it correctly.

It's great that Fr. Zlatko Sudac can read souls and prophesy. I am not particularly impressed or in awe of him or any other person with gifts, however, because after all it's not any of their doing, it's God's. It is not like he has some kind of powerful magic before which I need to tremble. Your mom may not be comfortable with Charismatic spiritual practices but she may actually be further along on the path to holiness than you are, or Fr. Sudac. I hope that doesn't sound harsh, I don't mean to suggest that you aren't holy, only to point out that the lack of external signs does not indicate a lack of extraordinary sanctity. I bet that Fr. Sudac has a ways to go, as do we all.

Edited May 16, 2008 by Lilllabettt

[Maggyie]

The above was me... sorry Lilla!

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1530064' date='May 16 2008, 12:55 AM']The above was me... sorry Lilla![/quote]


Digging deep here. Okay I forgive you.

[mortify]

I thought "speaking in tongues" meant either being miraculously gifted with the ability to speak another language, or being able to somehow communicate with angles. As far as I understand what we see today as speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc are things that originated in the Pentecostal movement and then found their way into Catholicism.

Edited May 16, 2008 by mortify