Armed Resistance Is Close.

[Guest JeffCR07]

While I am most certainly in the minority on this thread, I would like to address a few things with regards to the following post by Cure, and the general topic of the thread.

[quote]There is no way that vigilantly revolution is just. It just gives the pro–abortion side more ammunition to call us crazy and discredit us.[/quote]

Unlike Ironmonk, Al, John, and many of the others who have posted here, I have a slightly different take on the situation.

1.) The initial post of Ironmonk's was outlining details for [i]taking up arms[/i] NOT for [i]deposing a government[/i].

This being understood, it seems to me that if all of those conditions are met, it would be justifiable to take up arms to defend the babies about to be killed in an abortion clinic and the like, but not to overthrow the government and install a new catholic government in its place.

I would liken the situation that we have today to Emperor Nero of ancient times, who literally attached catholics to stakes and burned them to act as "street lamps."

Certainly it would be permissible to defend a small child from such a fate. In the same way, it would be permissible to defend an about-to-be-aborted baby. However, they did not depose Nero just because he was evil, and so too should we not depose the American Government because IT is evil.

The Holy person is the one who can sit down across the table from the government, look it in the eye, and tell it "I will obey your authority in all things that I can because all authority is God's (for it was His in the beginning and will be His in the end) and you are merely being Permitted to use it by Him, but what I cannot do is obey your exercise of that authority when you call me to break the Moral Law, as taught by the Magisterium and Holy Father of the Catholic Church."

In other words, the person should say that "I will give to Caeser what is Caeser's, and to God what is God's."

Taking up arms is one thing, but revolution, which implicitly disrespects the [i]entire[/i] authority of a governing body, and not just particular actions of that body, is sinful.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

Edited July 26, 2004 by JeffCR07

[Good Friday]

The vast majority of Catholic laymen, clergy and bishops will not support armed resistance, which will leave only a minority of Catholics fighting against -- well, the United States of America, including multiple police forces and, if need be, the military.

What will be the outcome of this? The Church will continue her non-violent resistance to abortion and eventually prevail; the armed militants will go to prison; abortion will not have ended but many Catholics will be in prison and will have made the Church look horrendous in the eyes of the world, thus discrediting it even further.

Sounds like a brilliant plan.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

mostly I just like the idea of getting rid of the places where such nastiness occurs. It's a fleeting wish though, because you're sort of right Good Friday. In the end it wouldn't get us very far. The culture of death would just find another place to do it in. I've practically given up on hope for this country. It seems so far gone! But there is always hope for a miracle....

[Guest JeffCR07]

Never give up hope, Kilroy. Despair is of the Devil, but we find Faith, Hope, and Love in Christ, for He is our Joy

In a practical sense, I agree with Good Friday, there is a great much that we must do to fight the Culture of Death as a whole that is so prevelant in our society (though I maintain my statements above).

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Don John of Austria]

If God is with you who can stand agianst? It is a a supreme lack in trust in God's Providence ( bordering on Faithlessness) to believe that any just Cause is hopeless, that being said sometimes one is morally obligated to fight for key values such a defence of the innocent, evenif one has almost no obvious chance of success, for if God is on your side your chance is always "reasonable".

[Quietfire]

It is agreed, I hope, that an actual armed resistance without proper authority from the Church would in fact be suicide for the Church.
We have had many role models to look toward to help us in finding a way to get this point across.
Protest, marches. (I would love a million -or more- Catholic and christian march on the White House declaring a reversal in the Roe vs. Wade law)
Rosary protests at abortion clinics are great, but theyre not even media coverage anymore. I never hear about them locally.
Remember that there are always unstable people out there willing to discredit an honest fight.

The thing to remember here is that Ironmonk is not saying pick up your 9mm glock and start shooting, he's saying that we are fast approaching the point of no return. Shouldnt we be stepping up the pressure? We should be putting the pressure on our politicians, and our local parishes to start something. Our voices should be heard, loudly, unceasantly, and lovingly.

As we all sit here comfortably in front of our computers, wishing for a miracle, maybe [b]we[/b] are the miracle.

Peace.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 26 2004, 09:15 PM'] The thing to remember here is that Ironmonk is not saying pick up your 9mm glock and start shooting, [/quote]
Of course not!! Everyone knows that the Glock 40 is a far superior weapon.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]It is agreed, I hope, that an actual armed resistance without proper authority from the Church would in fact be suicide for the Church[/quote] I don't think that would be agreed at all historically the Church has often had to be presented with a situation of war before She would stand up and declare that war was acceptable in a situation. More than that, The Church has already said that war in defence of the Faithful or of the innocent is not only permissable but Commanded by God, Councils have said as much, Bishops of the Church have already called us to arms in the Sudan, anyone gone there to help them? The Church in the West is already commiting suicide, slowly through inaction. Action has always saved the Church from the lethergy of Her people, I think Rebelion would likely be the Shot in the arm we Fat lazy american Catholics need to DO SOMETHING.

[quote]
Of course not!! Everyone knows that the Glock 40 is a far superior weapon[/quote]

Well said, 9mm's are for girls and nancy boys.

Edited July 27, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Guest JeffCR07]

I agree with much of what is being said, but I must refer to my first post (page 5) with regards to the notion of revolution.

[cmotherofpirl]

The first, second, and third you do is get on your knees and pray for you priest and your bishop- for his faithfulness, his courage, and his guts to stand up and be counted.

The Gospel on Sunday was about persistance in prayer, and asking until you recieve. The people of Denver prayed faithfully for 10 YEARS for a faithful Bishop, and they got Bishop Chaput, one of the best in the country.

For every hour you are talking about change, put an hour in on your knees begging for change and for faithful priests.

[Guest JeffCR07]

well said! The same goes for evangelization and apologetics!


For every hour that a Blessed Mother Teresa is helping to support the poor and needy, there is a St. Teresa of Liseuix spending an hour in prayer to support her!

Edited July 27, 2004 by JeffCR07