Armed Resistance Is Close.

[popestpiusx]

Ironmonk,
Not that anyone cares to much about what I have to say, but your words have been well chosen and quite clear. If one simply reads them and pays attention to what they are reading they should have no problem understanding it. The problem, I think, is widespread ignorance of the principles of justified war, which you explained quite well.

[popestpiusx]

If forty million dead babies are not worth going to war over, then what is?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jul 25 2004, 03:28 PM'] If forty million dead babies are not worth going to war over, then what is? [/quote]
3,500,000 slaves where worth going to war over. They lived, breathed, but were not free.


45,000,000 babies, who don't get to live, breath, and are not free.


ANYONE who says that the unborn would not be a just war cannot call the civil war a just war.


Almost 15 times the amount of babies have died compared to the number of living slaves.

Something for us all to think about.


AGAIN - I am not saying go to war. I am saying that justification is close. Close could be five months or twenty years.... How many more babies must die before we all get off our butts and do something.... email, call, organize... make it happen... Save the unborn.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

We don't have to go to war. The war will come to us.
Sooner or later the presecutions will come again.

The [color=red]blood[/color] of the martyrs are the seeds of the Church.

[Antonius]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 25 2004, 06:34 PM'] 3,500,000 slaves where worth going to war over. They lived, breathed, but were not free.


45,000,000 babies, who don't get to live, breath, and are not free.


ANYONE who says that the unborn would not be a just war cannot call the civil war a just war.


Almost 15 times the amount of babies have died compared to the number of living slaves. [/quote]
Ironmonk, I love ya, man, but the American Civil War was not fought over slavery. The war started because Honest Abe rightly needed to preserve the Union. Divided we fall, right? It was only after the war started that Lincoln used the Emancipation Proclamtion as a political move in the war. It was pretty weak anyway, saying that all slaves in the seceded states were declared free. Too bad he didn't have the power to free them, since the Union didn't control those states. Also, the slaves in the border states like Maryland weren't set free by the Proclamation.

That being said, I do understand what you have posted, though it is my belief that armed conflict is not [i]that [/i] close. Yes, it seems we do have a provision left in the Catechism to take arms against a sea of troubles and a tyrannical government. Thank you for bringing that up, since I didn't know about it. Abortion is a moral evil, and must be stopped. But it's not to the point of getting worried that armed conflict is soon to arise. I think that more than a few people on this thread have taken you out of context, but I also think that your wording kind of helped them mistake you. However, by now you have explained yourself.

Right now is as good a time as any for us to think about a few things. What's worth living for? What's worth dying for? Right now, for me, it would take an order from the Holy Father to take arms against the government because of the killing of innocents. I would not feel comfortable or in good conscience unless the Pope and the bishops supported it.

The desire to be a martyr was one that many saints had, and you've got us all thinking, Ironmonk. Thanks. Check out the website [url="http://www.defide.com"]De Fide.[/url].

[Don John of Austria]

The war between the States started because the North treated the South like a colony and "abe" illegaly invaded States which had every right to leave, Please point out where in the Constitution it says you can't vote to get out. The South was from a Traditional Just war point of veiw the Wronged Part, therefore the Slavery Issue was brought up as a Justification of the war, And it worked, by makeing that the Goal of the war the unionist invaders where able to take the moral high ground and make the war a " just war, However there tactics would now be called war crimes.

Now, unlike the War between the States the Abortion issue is likely to be the actual Cause of the next great Internal insurrection, and While I am not sure it is close I think the Criteria for it where meet at least 0 years ago.

[Antonius]

Hi, Don John. I don't want to get into your peculiar understanding of the Civil War, only that I've never heard your point of view before. I'm guessing you're from the South? I'm from New Jersey. But, enough said of that... (By the way, you're correct in saying that the actual "war" part was caused by Union agression. The Executive Branch had to enforce the law, which led to conflict, which is called war.)

I don't know what it's like where you live, but the Abortion issue is nowhere near armed conflict in Atlantic City, NJ. The weapon we use against abortion is the Rosary, which we also use to pray for peace. Are people really getting inflamed over this that you think this will cause the next Civil War?

Edited July 26, 2004 by Antonius

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Antonius' date='Jul 26 2004, 12:00 AM'] Check out the website [url="http://www.defide.com"]De Fide.[/url]. [/quote]
Thank you for the reply, I know there was much more the the war than just slavery, but there are conflicting stories, so we really can't be certain.

When I was a child in school (Indiana), it was about slavery.... when I moved to Florida in high school, it was so many other things than slavery.

But I'm glad you understood my point.


As far as De Fide goes, I did that about a month ago


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Antonius' date='Jul 26 2004, 12:36 AM'] Hi, Don John. I don't want to get into your peculiar understanding of the Civil War, only that I've never heard your point of view before. I'm guessing you're from the South? I'm from New Jersey. But, enough said of that... (By the way, you're correct in saying that the actual "war" part was caused by Union agression. The Executive Branch had to enforce the law, which led to conflict, which is called war.)

I don't know what it's like where you live, but the Abortion issue is nowhere near armed conflict in Atlantic City, NJ. The weapon we use against abortion is the Rosary, which we also use to pray for peace. Are people really getting inflamed over this that you think this will cause the next Civil War? [/quote]
If the Pope and the Bishops said it was just....

You would find me in a tank plowing through abortion clinics like the Juggernaut.

Because of stupidity I have lost children because of them.

I've always been against it, but it's a whole other story since that happened. I had no choice in the matter. There was nothing I could do.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Sinner]

All very interesting. I admire Ironmonk's dedication to a most just cause. I don't know about fighting or not fighting...... but I do know I am not doing enough by just praying. I feel myself moved to do more, and hopefully I will.

Ironmonk I thank you for at least getting me to reflect on my current level of action on this matter.

[MagiDragon]

Wow, this is really a fascinating topic! Too bad it's been blown out of context so badly.

[quote]To ensure peace, prepare for war.[/quote]

I think this little quote is probably a single line that can best sum up ironMonk's original post.

There are problems we need to work out in our country right now, abortion being the worst of those. It really would be fascinating to see what would happen if everyone who truly cared about abortion were to unify.

Just think what would happen if every city with an abortion clinic had 5,000 or 10,000 people sitting outside the clinics praying, blocking access. Yes, they'd throw many of us in jail, but the jails would overflow, and pressure would mount on politicians to do something. Granted, it's been tried before. Operation Rescue was stopped by some court order or something. I don't know, i was too young.

I think it would work if we would truly trust each other. The trouble is, i don't think we do. maybe i'm just being pessimistic, but . . . I think we would all like to see it happen . . . as long as we weren't the ones being arrested.

Peace,
MagiDragon

[Don John of Austria]

[quote] I don't want to get into your peculiar understanding of the Civil War, only that I've never heard your point of view before[/quote]

Wow really that is a pretty normal interpretation of anyone who has studied the Trade laws leading up to the War between the States.

Now to the Point of this thread Ironmonks point is that all the Criteria for a just Conflict are Close to being met( or already have been met, so the fact that in Atlantic city you sdon't see it being close sn't really the Point so much as the fact that it is approaching a time of moral permissability, and perhaps moral obligation.

[popestpiusx]

I think I will start a civil war thread so this one does not go off topic. But for the record, Don John is more correct on why that war took place. Consider the following letter:

Executive Mansion,
Washington, August 22, 1862.

Hon. Horace Greeley:
Dear Sir.

I have just read yours of the 19th. addressed to myself through the New-York Tribune. If there be in it any statements, or assumptions of fact, which I may know to be erroneous, I do not, now and here, controvert them. If there be in it any inferences which I may believe to be falsely drawn, I do not now and here, argue against them. If there be perceptable [sic] in it an impatient and dictatorial tone, I waive it in deference to an old friend, whose heart I have always supposed to be right.

As to the policy I "seem to be pursuing" as you say, I have not meant to leave any one in doubt.

I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.

Yours,
A. Lincoln.



I will leave the debate over whether it was justified for another thread.

As far as abortion, there is no question. As I said before forty million dead babies are worth going to war over.

[curtins]

amen to ironmonk!

i wouldnt mind slammin a nice 30 round mag into an m4 carbine an taking up arms

[color=red]nope[[/color]
down with abortion!!!!

Edited July 27, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Kilroy the Ninja]

I'm with you curtins. When no one is inside them. Otherwise, it kinda defeats the purpose....