IcePrincessKRS Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 03:21 PM'] See, this is where my long-held personal beliefs conflict with my religious ones... Since I can't really convince myself one way or the other, I just shrug it off with "Unborn babies can't think". Thus, I don't consider them to be fully alive. And if parents want an abortion but can't get one, there's a good chance that the child will lead an unhappy life. [/quote] So its ok to slaughter someone because "they can't think"??? Thats absurd. Unborn babies have as much potential and capacity for rational thought as you or I. What about newborn babies, the only difference between them and the unborn is that one is in the womb and the other is out. If newborns "can't think" can we kill them, too? Going with that logic it would be ok to kill any baby/toddler until they are fully potty trained and can feed themselves.... Absurd. There are studies done by real scientists which disprove your "not fully alive" theory. Edited July 23, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [i]So its ok to slaughter someone because "they can't think"??? Thats absurd. Unborn babies have as much potential and capacity for rational thought as you or I. What about newborn babies, the only difference between them and the unborn is that one is in the womb and the other is out. If newborns "can't think" can we kill them, too? Going with that logic it would be ok to kill any baby/toddler until they are fully potty trained and can feed themselves.... Absurd. There are studies done by real scientists which disprove your "not fully alive" theory.[/i] They do? I always assumed that being cramped in a space that small for nine months would drive one completely insane if their brain was fully functional... The baby isn't born yet and the parents may not want or be able to afford it. If they decide to keep the baby, they may suffer heavily financially, making it hell on all of them. If they put it up for adoption, there's a good chance that it will live off welfare and never amount to anything. At least that's the case around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Turning the other Cheek was not a not a command to be passive on the contrary turning the other cheek was concidered a serious insult at the time sort of the 1st century equivelant of saying, "huh, is that all you got." It was an even greater insult for someone of lesser station to do it to some one of higher station so really that is not in anyway relevent to the discussion turning the other cheek was not passive, it was infact resistance to the social order, it was rebelious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Zewe Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 I'm quite sure that it was to "offer the other cheek so that he might slap it too" or something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote] At least that's the case around here. [/quote] What strange planet are you liveing on do you know how much it cost to adopt a child, poor people cannot adopt. More than that there is a huge waiting list for babies to adopt so they wouldn't be regulated to a state facility, that is a completly BS arguement. More than that the implication that some one who grows up on welfares life is meaningless and that that person would be better off dead is so offensive I cannot even begin to respond accept by saying if you where before me I'd probably put you one your butt for saying it. That is one of the most mosterous,t Hitlerific things i have ever heard said by anyone. Finally the Fetus can think and even dream, try researching your topic before talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 Oh and Iron monk the answer to your question is No, more is the pitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmerf Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 02:21 PM'] See, this is where my long-held personal beliefs conflict with my religious ones... Since I can't really convince myself one way or the other, I just shrug it off with "Unborn babies can't think". Thus, I don't consider them to be fully alive. And if parents want an abortion but can't get one, there's a good chance that the child will lead an unhappy life. [/quote] Good grief. 'A good chance the child will lead an unhappy life' = reason to kill it? That would justify killing most of the pioneers who founded the US, just about anyone with AIDS in africa, and anyone suffering from clinical depression, to name only a few groups. Not to mention that neither you nor anyone else for that matter can see into the future and judge with certainty what the quality of someone's life will be. And you'd deal out life and death on the basis of 'a good chance'. You don't consider them to be fully alive? I'm certain their opinion differs from yours. There are only four factors that separate their life from yours: Size Level of development Environment Degree of dependency Size: Are short people less alive than tall people? No. Level of development: Are pre-pubescent children less alive than adults? No. Environment: Is someone indoors somehow more or less alive than someone out in the rain? No. Degree of dependency: Is a 6-month old, who is unable to feed or clothe themselves without assistance, less alive than you or I? No. If you want to attach Brain activity to that list (an utterly arbitrary distinction, but fine), then is a person who is awake more alive than someone who's asleep? No. So how can you possibly say that the preborn are less alive than you or I? But what really disturbs me about your post is your use of the term 'Shrug it off'. I find that utterly repugnant. Plenty of people 'shrugged off' Auchwitz, because who really knew what was going on there, anyways? Never mind, I'm sure the problem will go away... "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote]I'm quite sure that it was to "offer the other cheek so that he might slap it too" or something... [/quote] well that is the jist of it if not the actual scripture, and as i said that was an act which insulted the one who struck you , it was social rebellion to do it to those who where above you in social status. It was rebellious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 03:31 PM'] They do? I always assumed that being cramped in a space that small for nine months would drive one completely insane if their brain was fully functional... [/quote] The we'd all be insane wouldn't we? Clearly unborn babies don't have all the knowledge/ability to function that adults do, but as I said, they are no different from newborn babies outside the womb. The reasons you give for allowing the murder of unborn babies can be used for all sorts of people from unborns and newborns to adults and elderly. [quote]The baby isn't born yet and the parents may not want or be able to afford it. If they decide to keep the baby, they may suffer heavily financially, making it hell on all of them. [/quote] We all make sacrifices for our children. Thats part of what being a parent is about. [quote]If they put it up for adoption, there's a good chance that it will live off welfare and never amount to anything. At least that's the case around here.[/quote] Not here. Adoption is expensive, usually if they can afford to adopt they can afford to support the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 On the "unhappy life" note, kids don't need money or stuff to be happy. They need LOVE. My daughter is far happier sitting on my lap sharing a glass of water with me than she is playing with her toys. She would much rather give me hugs and kisses than be delegated to a room full of toys. "Money can't buy happiness." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='Jul 23 2004, 02:59 PM'] On the "unhappy life" note, kids don't need money or stuff to be happy. They need LOVE. My daughter is far happier sitting on my lap sharing a glass of water with me than she is playing with her toys. She would much rather give me hugs and kisses than be delegated to a room full of toys. "Money can't buy happiness." [/quote] And a Countless number of Amen's to that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted July 23, 2004 Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 23 2004, 04:00 PM'] And a Countless number of Amen's to that.. [/quote] in the words of my great grand pappy - Tru Dat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 23 2004, 03:41 PM'] Thats sounds like something Osama would say. Convert to my form of Islam now and if not well lets killed the "hardened hearts." I doubt Christ would have called his followers to armed conflict if they couldn't get someone to convert. What type of message would He than protray. And in saying "Armed Resistance is close" than it can logicaly be infered that is a threat of armed resistance because you are saying that it is "nearly" the time for conflict. [/quote] Again you miss the point. Pay attention. Pay attention. Pay attention. Look up Proverbs 29:9. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 23, 2004 Author Share Posted July 23, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 04:21 PM'] See, this is where my long-held personal beliefs conflict with my religious ones... Since I can't really convince myself one way or the other, I just shrug it off with "Unborn babies can't think". Thus, I don't consider them to be fully alive. And if parents want an abortion but can't get one, there's a good chance that the child will lead an unhappy life. [/quote] Unborn babies can think. They feel. They are alive. Hmmm... unhappy(could be happy) or dead? From a godless point of view life begins somewhere between conception and birth. Innocent life should never be taken. It is reasonable doubt that since godless people don't know where life begins that they could be killing someone... Therefore abortion is evil and should never happen. In reference to some things you have stated about what the Church teaches.... You are trying to argue against something you know nothing about. Logic states that you should learn about it before trying to argue against it. Someone with a high level of intelligence would study what they are arguing against before actually arguing. NO ONE IS SAYING GO TO WAR. IT WOULD be justifiable if the criteria are met. Please pay attention if you wish to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 [quote name='Chris Zewe' date='Jul 23 2004, 03:21 PM'] See, this is where my long-held personal beliefs conflict with my religious ones... Since I can't really convince myself one way or the other, I just shrug it off with "Unborn babies can't think". Thus, I don't consider them to be fully alive. And if parents want an abortion but can't get one, there's a good chance that the child will lead an unhappy life. [/quote] This could possibly be one of the most rediculous things I have ever had the misfortune of reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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