Armed Resistance Is Close.

[crusader1234]

[quote]2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
[/quote]

thats from the CCC.

Again, I'm not stupid - I'm not a pacifist and I know there are just wars. But right now I dont think we should be threatening people with war, I think we should be working against Abortion harder than ever so it doesn't come to that. Threatening "Oh if you don't stop this we are gonna throw this down on you" isn't in line with the CCC. Saying, "ok, the just war criteria is about to be met, lets work even harder to stop it from being met" is what I think Jesus would do. Avoding war means working against the criteria... so if its at all possible to change things without war, I think thats key.

[Aloysius]

congradulations: you've discovered the context of ironmonk's post.

[crusader1234]

Wow! Did you invent sarcasm?! (wait, that was sarcastic, how redundant)

Anyways, I get the context, it just seemed like more of a threat or something like we are getting ready for which isn't good.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Let's tone it down a bit here before people REALLY start getting their feelings hurt....


But I think ya'll know who I agree with...

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 22 2004, 07:21 PM'] Also, I can say, and be confortable in these two things, that if the time for armed conflict was to come it would not be decided by a member of the lay people.
[/quote]
I agree totally with you IronMonk.

Its time to Stand up!!

Not on the Computer in a forum talking to non-catholics

Not talking about it..physically doing it.

I for one have failed big time at this and im sorry.



Now for my quote above..cant remember who wrote it.

Dont fool yourself for one second thinking that anyone OTHER than the laymen would make this call.

98% of the Clergy in the USA wont even stand up against Pro-Death politicians and the homosexual lifestyle..what makes you think they would honestly make a call like this?

I only see very few Priests actually standing up and doing something about Abortion, www.priestsforlife.com is the only site I know of where they are highly visible and actually doing something.

I agree with IronMonk, its time to take over the clinics, the government and whatever we need.

Like I mentioned in another Thread just now - Jesus went into the Temple and turned over tables, casting the people out, He was ANGRY because they corrupted the Temple. Righteous Anger!

Wheres our Righteous Anger? When are we going to start turning over Tables and casting people out and holding them accountable?

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jul 23 2004, 12:02 AM'] Let's tone it down a bit here before people REALLY start getting their feelings hurt....


But I think ya'll know who I agree with... [/quote]
totally. This sort of stuff is why I don't post as much any more. One [b]public[/b] statement of excommunication to all Catholics in public office who support abortion politics can do a lot of good for pro-life politics, and it hasn't happened yet, and since the Holy Spirit is in control I'm sure it's for a reason. We should wait and pray, and act with the Church. Prayer takes time and really really works; just have a little faith that God is in control. Angry people and scare tactics and violence only yeild temporary results. Pray for a conversion in our society, which will last for generations.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote] One public statement of excommunication to all Catholics in public office who support abortion politics can do a lot of good for pro-life politics, and it hasn't happened yet, and since the Holy Spirit is in control I'm sure it's for a reason[/quote]

How Calvinist Of you. The Holy Spirt is NOT " in control". The Holy Spirit Offers negative protection against untruths being declared infallably either in Council ( any councilior statement which incorporates an [i]anathama sic[/i] or specifically states that it is infallable) and Infallable Statments made by the Pope ie those which have been made which he meets the criteria of infallability. The Holy Spirit [b]most certianly does not [/b]force Bishops in any way to act or not to act within the relm of there own concience likewise he offers them no special graces except those which are inherent to there office, Bishops are just as subject to Cowardice as the rest of us, likewise they are just as subject to the sufferings of Hell for subcoming to them and not acting in the Authority of thier office. Please do not blaspheme the Holy spirit by implying that it is His will that the Bishops of the Church openly neglect thier office to [u][i][b]DEFEND THIER SHEEP[/b][/i][/u]. They are shepards and are obliged to take up the weapons that God has given them and defend the innocent under thier rule. Second in power among these is Excommunication and they are Obliged to use it. I sincerly Pray for the Souls of our Bishops God show them more mercy than they have show the unborn in their Charge.



[quote]The CCC is not opposed to war. The Pope is not a pacifist.

The Church is for Peace, sometimes to keep the peace, it takes war.

The Church does not say go to war, or says it's getting close.

I think you are missing the point. The criteria for a just war is close to getting met. We are to fight for truth. We can fight through prayer, fasting, and marching. We can also fight through arms.... as a last resort.

Do you think the Catholic Church opposed the civil war? No. This country was for slavery at the time, the Church was against slavery because of race. (The Church is not against indentured servants)

This is the same senario... but this time the stakes are graver... we're not talking about freedom to do as we wish... we talking about the right to life....

If it's ok to go to war over slavery, your beaver dam right to go to war over millions of innocent lives... 45,500,000 babies dead in the last 30 years.... Do we wait until 90,000,000 are killed by being torn apart? No.

hmmm... 580,000 lives... to give freedom to people to do as they wish.

How many lives is it worth to save the next 45,000,000 of the unborn?
I would give my life.

Even if 5,000,000 people died in saving the lives of 45,000,000 babies, then it's totally worth it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few... according to the Word of God. As when the Holy Spirit spoke through the head rabbi... "It is better that one innocent man parish than the whole of Isreal".


If people don't want blood to be shed, then get out and preach until you can't preach no more, we must get EVERY abortion politician out of office.

Luke 12:51 Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.
52 From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three;
53 a father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."


Preach the truth. Save the unborn. Stand up and speak out to all those you know... urge them to do the same.

No abortionist may enter my house. I have lost friends over this. The murder of the unborn must stop.

If Catholics were Catholic this would not have ever gotten this bad.

We need to pray, fast, stand up. Speak out. Take to the streets, and bring the cities to a standstill until abortion is ended.


If that does not work, and all other measures are exhausted and the criteria is met, then we must take up arms and save the lives of the innocent.

[/quote]

Wow is this weird or what this sounds Like what I was saying to last year and the year before.

Edited July 23, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Aloysius]

wait a second here... Kilroy, CatholicAndFanatical, M.SIGGA, and Dohn John posting all in a row in a topic started by Ironmonk... it seems like forever since there's been an ol' school PhatMass discussion...

last time i saw somethin tween these people it was in the back alley.

[Don John of Austria]

Well that option is no longer avialable so we must all be on our best behavior.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 23 2004, 02:46 AM'] wait a second here... Kilroy, CatholicAndFanatical, M.SIGGA, and Dohn John posting all in a row in a topic started by Ironmonk... it seems like forever since there's been an ol' school PhatMass discussion...

last time i saw somethin tween these people it was in the back alley. [/quote]
lol your right it has been awhile huh..

hehe i miss those days



Good to see everyone again and be on the same thread.

[MichaelFilo]

Being 15 and not being able to get a ride anywhere, it's pretty hard stuff fighting for life outside of arguing for it, and defense of life. But, to be honest, if so many people can get up and fight for their "right" to kill their unborn babies, why can't we fight for the rights of the unborn. I am going to try to go to the next rosary prayer in front of an abortion clinic.

As far as physical struggle and fighting and all that good stuff, I am ready to take a stand (If I can get a ride ). Jesus didn't pick up a sign and protest for the money changers to leave the temple, he didn't start a large crowd to go tell those people to please go away, he went in there, and showed them what for. He got physical, as he saw something that was against the Father. A civil war wouldn't win it, but any group that chooses to take action against abortion clinics, even if it means physical force will show that he/she mean business. As far as pro-death'ers, it's irrelevant to what they think, as they think it's ok to kill people if they don't reason.

Sit-ins, however, would be the most effective way. Sadly among the Church Militant, few are very ... well militant.

In hope for a resolution, however it may come,

God bless,

Michael Filo

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Jul 23 2004, 02:02 AM'] Let's tone it down a bit here before people REALLY start getting their feelings hurt....


But I think ya'll know who I agree with... [/quote]
If the truth hurts people's feelings, those people have issues that need resolved. A lot of growth comes through getting our feelings hurt.

Let's kick it up a notch, ruffle feathers, and get something done about the babies being ripped apart with a blender.

Christ came to set the world on fire, not cool it off. I am a firestarter.

It is almost impossible not to hurt someone's feelings when they're doing something wrong and someone corrects them. Sometimes when people voice their opinions it is going to hurt someone's feelings, that person has issues because they should realize that not everyone is going to think the way they do. People need to be more mature.



[quote]

thats from the CCC.

Again, I'm not stupid - I'm not a pacifist and I know there are just wars. But right now I dont think we should be threatening people with war, I think we should be working against Abortion harder than ever so it doesn't come to that. Threatening "Oh if you don't stop this we are gonna throw this down on you" isn't in line with the CCC. Saying, "ok, the just war criteria is about to be met, lets work even harder to stop it from being met" is what I think Jesus would do. Avoding war means working against the criteria... so if its at all possible to change things without war, I think thats key. [/quote]



My first post on this thread is from the CCC... did you miss that?
If the criteria is met, we can justly take up arms.

Less people will die from ending abortion in this country than from the millions of baby killings per year.

Have you paid attention to anything I wrote on this thread? I AM NOT SAYING TAKE UP ARMS. NO ONE IS THREATENING PEOPLE WITH WAR. If you read what I wrote you will see that I have posted that the Church guides us in these decisions.

If every pro-lifer refused to do business with any abortionist, communicate with any abortionist, and once a week walk out in the streets and stop traffic, bringing the cities to a halt, vote for only pro-life judges, congressmen, mayors, govenors, senators and presidents, then abortion would end quickly.


Do we allow another 10 million babies to die? 20 Million? 40 million?


Kerry wants to make us pay for abortions world wide.... if he gets in, taking up arms will be even closer to being justifiable.

On judgement day, when I'm in front of Christ, I want to be able to say that I did everything in my power to save those who cannot defend themselves.


Pay attention to the whole thread, not just one or two lines.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[God Conquers]

I'd like to point out that the only surefire way to stop these things is not violence, but the conversion of Men's (in the androgenous sense of all people) hearts to Christ.

If we all truly took up the Pope's call to evangelize in everything we did, and focus all of our efforts to call people to repentance and conversion in love, we would very quickly see a genuine turnaround in society.

Legislation, violence, shouting, writing articles, are all fine and dandy, but if you want to promote genuine societal change, it is necessary to get to the root of the problem:

Jesus is no longer in the center of most people's lives.

Changing this will change the world in a real way.

It took our early ancestors in the faith over 1000 years to fight through the amount of apostacy we see now... we'd better get started.

So don't start planning a war, don't start planning ecclesiastical rebellion. Sit down and start praying for your neighbour, then plan on when you're inviting him to Church, to a youth group, or over to dinner, and share with him the incredible gift of our Redeemer, eternal life through Christ Jesus.

[Dave]

You're so right. Abortion should be made illegal, of course, but unless people's hearts are converted, such a law wouldn't be worth the paper it's printed on.

[mmmerf]

OKay, I'm posting this because I think Blake's attitude towards england over a century ago pretty much matches what our attitude must be towards the whole of the 21st century.

[b]Jerusalem - William Blake[/b]

[i]And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic mills?
Bring me my bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire.
[b]I will not cease from mental fight, [/b]
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.[/i]


(Emphasis mine)

I, for one, would welcome a excommunication [i]latae sententiae[/i] statement from Rome for pro-abortion politicians. But we already have one - excommunication for anyone who assists in the procuring of an abortion. So I believe enforcing the Code of Canon Law now rests with the individual bishops.