Armed Resistance Is Close.

[mulls]

No one get's "killed" - not intentionally.

We should set up protesters in front of ALL abortion clinics, and refuse to let anyone in. If things get physical, so be it.

But, like we've said, this is ONLY a last resort.

so what happens when a pregnant woman is being refused from entering the clinic, and things get physical, and she falls down and gets hurt and the baby dies?

i agree with thomas.

[jrndveritatis]

Jesus turned the other cheek and resisted fighting back physically even when it meant his death.

ironmonk, while I understand your feelings, I would still rather die than kill. Only then can I truly say that I have followed Jesus.

Jesus resisted fighting back because He had to die to redeem us from our sins.

Jesus never condemned war. In fact, some of his most devout followers initially were Roman centurions. He never told them to lay down their arms.

It is completely against Catholic doctrine to say that we are not obligated to defend ourselves through war if necessary. Check Aquinas, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and JP2.

1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

Certainly, the first condition is met.

The third is probably met.

As for two, we have tried all other means.

But I don't think there would be a well-founded hope of success. The government would easily destroy any armed resistance, with the backing of the United Nations, that bastion of liberalism's horrors.

Also, it is possible to reasonably foresee a better solution. The Supreme Court is split about 7-2 or 6-3 against the right to life. With three more pro-life judges, that could be changed. Also, abortions have been in decline overall since Roe v. Wade, and the public has become more pro-life. Not to mention, the pro-abortion zealots are killing all their kids, and the pro-lifers are having more pro-life children. So there is hope for peaceful resolution.

But I do agree that war is sometimes necessary. Just not in this case.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I would be willing to beat up a few Planned Parenthood executives. Nobody wants to mess with an Irishman with a bad temper. Those yahoos have a website for "kids" telling them how to have "safe" sex. The Dude is getting angry...

[EDIT] This isn't the same site I was at long ago but maybe they changed the link to here:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/teens/

Edited February 26, 2004 by thedude

[ironmonk]

Leviticus 19:16

You shall not go about spreading slander among your kinsmen; nor shall you stand by idly when your neighbor's life is at stake. I am the LORD.

17 "You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart. Though you may have to reprove your fellow man, do not incur sin because of him.

For those who stand by and do nothing about the our unborn neighbors, it's time to take heed, stand up, and speak out.... The noise from the Catholics of the nation should be deafening to the judges and the elected officials of this nation.

Even the little politicians that run we must press them on the issue because the small offices lead to the bigger ones. Do not let them shrink from the answer to the questions.

We should all be shamed that we have not stood up sooner... that this has been allowed to go on for 30 years.

For the Love of Christ,

ironmonk

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Feb 25 2004, 12:12 AM'] [b]2243 [/b]
[b]Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met:[/b] 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.



1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights;
[color=blue]Check. 30 years of abortion. 43,500,000 dead babies and counting [/color]


2) all other means of redress have been exhausted;
[color=blue]This is close. [/color]


3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders;
[color=blue]Check. With over 43 million dead babies, if a a hundred thousand people die to save another 43 million, then it will be worth it.[/color]

4) there is well-founded hope of success; and
[color=blue]Check. If every pro-lifer stood up for the innocent, without doubt we would succeed.[/color]


5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.
[color=blue]We must be patient, but if it does not change in the next few years, how many more innocent lives do we need to let die before we stand up and fight? 1.3 Million innocent babies per year.[/color]



Once all five conditions are met, it is a Catholic's duty to resort to Armed Resistance.

We cannot sit idle while so many babies are being killed.

[b]Proverbs 31:8 [/b]
Open thy mouth for the dumb, and for the causes of all the children that pass.
[b]9[/b]Open thy mouth, decree that which is just, and do justice to the needy and poor.

[b]Sirach 4:28 [/b]
Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you.



Do you feel it in your gut?

It's in the back of your mind... and has been there before.

You are here for something important. God has a plan for you but sometimes it's just not clear what.

Something to change the world... A great and noble cause....

Just maybe this is the fire that He wants to ignite in your heart....

Stand up and speak out... ESPECIALLY TO Catholics.

We all need to start calling senators... everyday. It's time to speak up for those who cannot.

And if we exhaust all of these measures.... then it's time for another civil war.

We should learn from Dr. Martin Luther King. Jr.... Look how he took to the streets and stood up for what was right.

The time is now to organize... for tomorrow we march.

The new moral truth site will be up soon.... God is calling you and asking you to call others... 64 Million Catholics in the US.... If ONLY 1% of us made it a point to call/fax/email 10 senators daily without stopping, we would make a difference.


Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk [/quote]
Ironmonk,

Would you have the Pope endorse this work? I am not disagreeing, but just wondering.

[FX2]

If a civil war was started over this i would take up arms. But think how much more bloodshed there would be. I mean during the civil war, the all the rebels were not fighting for slavery, they were fighting for their homeland, and because their neighbors were fighting.

What you are talking about Ironmonk, reminds me of someone blowing up an abortion clinic or running in there with a gun. I dont like that idea because innocent people die. Yet we are running out of options. But Dr King did it peacfully. How about sit ins? Such as surrounding a clinic and not letting any one in? The blacks did it in restarunts and got their point across with little bloodshed. I beleive we can do the same.

We shall overcome this, not with violence, but with determination. If u feel so pationately about this, do that, get arrested, for u are doing the right thing. Just like rosa parks got arrested. Get the youth , middle aged and all togeather. I mean during the racial movement, there were just as many senators if not less that supported what they were doing. If we do the same, we will have support too


I believe u need to think this through alot more. But if worse comes to worse, you got me.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote]We should learn from Dr. Martin Luther King. Jr.... Look how he took to the streets and stood up for what was right.[/quote]

Monk, Dr. King along with JPII preached all things could be changed with love and peace and solidarity and using Dr. King as an example to carry arms is really low.

JPII is the AUTHOR of the solidarity movement that swept through the Iron Block and when he is a great saint this will be one of the things he will be most remembered by.

The Old Testement also says to stone women and not eat pork.

If "pro-life" politicians were 100% loyal to the main reason people will cross party lines to elect them this might have been wiped out 20 years ago.

The Just War scenario is no where near to being totally exhausted as long as "abortion-ban" is still the unmentionable "A" word of supposed pro-life politicians at election time.

We still have abortion because this nation isn't 100% serious - my proof is why do the bishops still allow unrepentant "murders" and "accomplices to murder" the ability to recieve the Blessed Sacrament?

Surrendering ourselves totally to God is the answer because He is in control. The POWER OF PRAYER is stronger than any physical weapon because God promises to answer our prayers and he is LOYAL to his word and he ALWAYS delivers on time.

A Crusade to spread Faith would be more effective to end abortion, which would change the law and convert souls.

[God Conquers]

I think we're all just too comfy to go to jail for what we believe in.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Mar 4 2004, 12:10 AM'] I think we're all just too comfy to go to jail for what we believe in. [/quote]
I think we are too quick to kill instead of protest and go to jail.

[God Conquers]

Yo Sigga! I was talking about jail time for peaceful protests brother! Not murder and mass destruction!

[ironmonk]

NO WHERE did I write we should pick up arms. I wrote it was CLOSE... and IT IS in line with what the Church teaches.

The Pope IS NOT a pacifist.


RE-READ THE FIRST POST!





LOOK AT THE CONTEXT.... I WAS TALKING ABOUT TAKING TO THE STREETS.

[the lumberjack]

guys, just my quick 2 cents, which I'm SURE you're already tired of...

its only gonna get worse...really.

there is NO hope for this world, it is like a boat with SOOOO many holes its sinking in its ever-rapidly spiraling lack of God in EVERYTHING and how it delights in its own filth. the oppression of the church and TRUTH for the embracing of a lie...

the seeking of self and all of the postmodern doctrine that has been preached throughout the world is a virus infecting to the very depths of the body of believers. "love everyone for who they are, accept them for who they are. Straight, gay, it doesn't matter...Fetuses aren't really people..." "just be good and do what feels good" and "god is in you, seek yourself for answers."

what a load of carp.

its only gonna keep going down from here, till we reach the time when Christ will come back for the church...

...so you guys do what you feel is necessary...but I'm just gonna keep lookin at the Scriptures mold, and holding up the signs of the times and fulfilled prophecies up to the Bible.

love.

[FX2]

i agree, but we gotta stop acting out and voicing our opionion in only our comfort zone. we gotta go to the streets! We have to go wherever we think they would not want to hear us. i mean like Jesus said, go, preach, and if they dont accept you shake the dust off your feet.

[the_rev]

I'm reading The cross at Ground Zero and everything here actually is touched upon in that book.

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 05:12 PM'] ...so you guys do what you feel is necessary...but I'm just gonna keep lookin at the Scriptures mold, and holding up the signs of the times and fulfilled prophecies up to the Bible.
[/quote]
I agree with your post that the World is finite and lost and if we think it's bad now it's only going to get worse and worse and all nations will turn against Israel and the Church, etc... But shouldn't your faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit working in you convict you to action on behalf of those who don't know Christ, do injustice, and blaspheme his Name? I don't think we are supposed to sit and wait for Jesus, but the command I recieved from the Gospel is to be ready for when he comes ... and those are two very different things.