ironmonk Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 (edited) 2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution. 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; Check. 30 years of abortion. 43,500,000 dead babies and counting 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; This is close. 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; Check. With over 43 million dead babies, if a a hundred thousand people die to save another 43 million, then it will be worth it. 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and Check. If every pro-lifer stood up for the innocent, without doubt we would succeed. 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution. We must be patient, but if it does not change in the next few years, how many more innocent lives do we need to let die before we stand up and fight? 1.3 Million innocent babies per year. Once all five conditions are met, it is a Catholic's duty to resort to Armed Resistance. We cannot sit idle while so many babies are being killed. Proverbs 31:8 Open thy mouth for the dumb, and for the causes of all the children that pass. 9Open thy mouth, decree that which is just, and do justice to the needy and poor. Sirach 4:28 Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you. Do you feel it in your gut? It's in the back of your mind... and has been there before. You are here for something important. God has a plan for you but sometimes it's just not clear what. Something to change the world... A great and noble cause.... Just maybe this is the fire that He wants to ignite in your heart.... Stand up and speak out... ESPECIALLY TO Catholics. We all need to start calling senators... everyday. It's time to speak up for those who cannot. And if we exhaust all of these measures.... then it's time for another civil war. We should learn from Dr. Martin Luther King. Jr.... Look how he took to the streets and stood up for what was right. The time is now to organize... for tomorrow we march. The new moral truth site will be up soon.... God is calling you and asking you to call others... 64 Million Catholics in the US.... If ONLY 1% of us made it a point to call/fax/email 10 senators daily without stopping, we would make a difference. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Edited February 25, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 what do you mean by "armed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 (edited) Ironmonk. I agree. Actually, I think your stats are for the US only. Worldwide it's like 45 million babies per year! http://www.angelfire.com/nj3/rebekah8370/ Indeed it is drawing close. And I will be proud to wield my pitchfork next to you! ;) Edited February 25, 2004 by Jake Huether Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Ya, violence doesn't help civil rights movements. Unless its perpetrated against a peaceful movement. Also, killing 100 000 people to save 45 million is NOT worth it. Ends do not justify any means. Murdering to stop murder isn't right. Widespread social uprising, trouble, destruction of property, civil disobedience are acceptable, not mass murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 (edited) Ya, violence doesn't help civil rights movements. Unless its perpetrated against a peaceful movement. Also, killing 100 000 people to save 45 million is NOT worth it. Ends do not justify any means. Murdering to stop murder isn't right. Widespread social uprising, trouble, destruction of property, civil disobedience are acceptable, not mass murder. "Armed Resistance" - Use of weapons. If 100,000 people die and save 43 Million, then yes, it is worth it provided that ALL five conditions are met. If the five conditions are met, then by Church teaching WE ARE OBLIGATED to take up arms and stop the grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights... The Fundamental Right to Life. Please reread the first post. The ends do not justify the means, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. What is a greater loss: 43,000,000 or 100,000? It would be a just war if all five conditions are met and it was to stop abortion. If the government does not stop abortion, it will be time for a new government. "grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights" What is more grave and prolonged than the innocent lives of babies killed by abortion for the last 30 years? All peaceful means must be exhausted first, once exhusted, Catholics must stand up and fight. Sirach 4:28 Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you. The Scriptures and the Church side with this post. It's not murder to kill less lives to prevent the murder of millions more. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Edited February 25, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Look. In our society, all recourses will take many more years to be exhausted. Grassroots resistance and nonviolent mass movements must come before armed resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Look. In our society, all recourses will take many more years to be exhausted. Grassroots resistance and nonviolent mass movements must come before armed resistance. Did I say they shouldn't? No. Please read the first post again. Your Servant, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 If 100,000 people die and save 43 Million, then yes, it is worth it provided that ALL five conditions are met. What we are talking about is self-defense of the people, the defense of "the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”... innocent civilians are being murdered. Has it gotten this close? This should be a wake-up call to all of us. If we are this close to justification of an uprising, we really need to wake up and write our senators and tell them to stop playing politics and start doing their jobs... they need to speak the mind of the public they are supposed to represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Look. In our society, all recourses will take many more years to be exhausted. Grassroots resistance and nonviolent mass movements must come before armed resistance. You know, I believe there is still hope… And I thank God for that. God has blessed the U.S.A. in a big way. Still, we need a shock – a real wake up call… and this post is pretty real. We don’t want God’s blessing to be tossed to the side while we watch and write letters to politicians and pick our noses. We do have hope always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 so who gets killed? abortion doctors or the governement or planned parenthood or all of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 so who gets killed? abortion doctors or the governement or planned parenthood or all of them? No one get's "killed" - not intentionally. We should set up protesters in front of ALL abortion clinics, and refuse to let anyone in. If things get physical, so be it. But, like we've said, this is ONLY a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 dang, that's intense ironmonk! I hope the phatmass revolution puts an end to everything bad. "All your clinic are belong to us!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 holy hip hop is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 so who gets killed? abortion doctors or the governement or planned parenthood or all of them? It would be an overthrow of government. If all five conditions are met, then Christians everywhere need to take a stand. War was waged over people being slaves, IS NOT THE LIVES OF MILLIONS WORTH IT? Slavery is better than death... Is not the lives of innocent babies worth fightin unto death? Anyone who says nay to it, then I call you a coward and non-Christian.... (I REPEAT: If ALL five conditions are met) If some here would reread the first post you will clearly see that I posted that we should be calling our senators and hounding them until a change happens. -ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ironmonk, I'm reading a book right now that you would really like. It's called 'Pacifism as Pathology.' It's about armed self-defence. Having said that, I disagree with it completely. Jesus turned the other cheek and resisted fighting back physically even when it meant his death. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God" Matthew 5:3 "But I say to you….love you enemies and pray for those that persecute you….in order that you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven" Matthew 5:44-45 "The humblest among the living is worth more than the greatest of the dead." (Tertullian) Protest, Civil-Disobedience, and as a last resort: Destruction of Private property. This is where I stand in the matter. Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. was a pacifist and look how much he accomplished, same with Ghandi. Bombing abortion clinics and murdering people do/will only discredit our movement. ironmonk, while I understand your feelings, I would still rather die than kill. Only then can I truly say that I have followed Jesus. So keep writting letters and let's get more people out to our protests. People will have more respect for our movement if we are peaceful. If things get violent I PROMISE you that we will be antagonized and portrayed as murderers and villians. -Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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