Limbo And Extra Ecclesiam

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1306099954' post='2244558']
Only souls that [u]knowingly [/u]reject baptism with the [u]knowledge [/u]of the existence of original sin descend immediately into hell. Even if it were their only sin. [/quote]
You are adding to the Conciliar texts qualifiers which are not there. The traditional teaching of the Church regarding unbaptized infants is not that find eternal rest in heaven. It is why their loss is such a tragedy. There is no other remedy for them than the sacrament of Baptism. Limbo-- a place of natural happiness is merciful and honest.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1305990814' post='2244182']
i dont see many of those sorts of catholics, who aren't also [b]flaming liberal quacks[/b] or those who dont care etc.


[/quote]

How would you describe yourself?

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1306099362' post='2244555']
I do not believe that limbo exists... instead, I believe that all those who are invincibly ignorant go to heaven after they are instructed and purified in purgatory.
[/quote]

Well I'm glad someone has written that. I was starting to get put off of Christianity.
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html"](Read this at Vatican WS)[/url]
[font="Times New Roman"] [/font][quote][font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]But the Church, as mother and teacher, cannot fail to reflect upon the fate of all men, created in the image of God, and in a more particular way on the fate of the weakest members of the human family and those who are not yet able to use their reason and freedom[/size][/font][/quote]

The definition of limbo is a place where nothing happens, just like being asleep without dreams etc. The notion that it is a place not being with God but being one of happiness is a contradiction. True happiness is not attainable without God because amongst all the other positive things that he is he IS also happiness. The alternative to God other than hell is the wilderness. Happiness can be pursued but cannot be found in the wilderness. Happiness is impossible in hell without question. The Church has realised that God is not bound by history or time. God knows also the future hence the Church has realised the need for the possibility of baptism of desire. God will know if a child would have been baptised by their own choosing having not been terminated early or remained in a state of invincible ignorance. The Church allows the possibility of [b]divine salvation for all souls who through no fault of their own.[/b] Dear friends baptism of water is an important and vital necessity for salvation but don't think of God being so lame that he does not have an escape clause for those poor souls whom have not had [b]free choice. [/b]

Edited May 22, 2011 by Mark of the Cross

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1306098980' post='2244551']
Why would that be a problem? Aren't all babies obviously invincibly ignorant? I mean unless baby geniuses exist.
[/quote]


There is a differance between saying the invincibly ignorant are not damned, and saying they are saved.

[RashaLampa]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' timestamp='1306102262' post='2244574']
You are adding to the Conciliar texts qualifiers which are not there. The traditional teaching of the Church regarding unbaptized infants is not that find eternal rest in heaven. It is why their loss is such a tragedy. There is no other remedy for them than the sacrament of Baptism. Limbo-- a place of natural happiness is merciful and honest.
[/quote]
Amen, and that is why abortion is one of the greatest evils ever. It deprives so many of heaven. I don't like when so many pro-lifers say that the unborn unbaptized go to heaven. When I held this position I had a man come up to me when I was sidewalk counseling that said to me, "Why are you trying to stop women from having an abortion if these babies get a straight shot to heaven...." I was dumbfounded and couldn't answer!

I mean of course, murder is evil even if the person being killed is ultimately going to heaven, but you see my point.......

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RashaLampa' timestamp='1306103742' post='2244586']
Amen, and that is why abortion is one of the greatest evils ever. It deprives so many of heaven. I don't like when so many pro-lifers say that the unborn unbaptized go to heaven. When I held this position I had a man come up to me when I was sidewalk counseling that said to me, "Why are you trying to stop women from having an abortion if these babies get a straight shot to heaven...." I was dumbfounded and couldn't answer!

I mean of course, murder is evil even if the person being killed is ultimately going to heaven, but you see my point.......
[/quote]


Agreed. Abortion is one of the Greatest of Evils, for exactly this reason.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RashaLampa' timestamp='1306100079' post='2244561']
Can you quote an infallible statement to support this idea?
[/quote]


No he can't because it doesn't exist.

[RashaLampa]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1306103224' post='2244581']
Dear friends baptism of water is an important and vital necessity for salvation but don't think of God being so lame that he does not have an escape clause for those poor souls whom have not had [b]free choice. [/b]
[/quote]

MC Rasha Lampa here rockin' da mic. I'm finna crush dem wack EMCEES...WUUUUUUHHHH.....LOL (Yes, as well as studying the Denzinger, I do speak JIVE.)


In order to support "my" position I can quote infallible statements of the extraordinary magisterium as well as infallible statements that are infallible by virtue of being part of the ordinary and UNIVERSAL magisterium.

We can't base our Faith on how we "feel" or on an document by a Theological Commission which even itself says that it is not infallible.

Here's a few more:

[b]Pope Martin V, Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415 - [/b]
Proposition 6:[color="#8b0000"] "Those who claim, that the children of the faithful dying without sacramental baptism will not be saved, are stupid and presumptuous in saying this = [u][size="4"]Condemned[/size][/u]." [/color]Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 422 [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/CONSTANC.HTM#5"]http://www.ewtn.com/.../CONSTANC.HTM#5[/url]

[b]Pope St. Innocent I, in 417, Synod of Milevis[/b] : [color="#a0522d"][size="2"]"[/size][/color][color="#a0522d"][size="2"][b]The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life even without the grace of baptism is utterly foolish[/b][/size][/color][color="#a0522d"][size="2"]"[/size][/color] [size="2"](DS 219).[/size]

Edited May 22, 2011 by RashaLampa

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='RashaLampa' timestamp='1306103742' post='2244586']
"Why are you trying to stop women from having an abortion if these babies get a straight shot to heaven...." I was dumbfounded and couldn't answer!

I mean of course, murder is evil even if the person being killed is ultimately going to heaven, but you see my point.......
[/quote]
No, I don't see your point ! It's a silly question. Because why not euthanase the terminally sick faithful. Why not get baptised go to confession, then commit suicide if your life doesn't suit you? Abortion is wrong because it is against Gods plan, it is a materialistic purpose so the parent can have a materialistic baby free life instead of accepting responsible parent hood. It is the grave sin of the parent. The fact that [i]'their[/i] (the Child) [i]angels will behold the face of God in heaven. [/i]doesn't negate that sin.

[i] [/i][quote name='RashaLampa' timestamp='1306104157' post='2244591']
MC Rasha Lampa here rockin' da mic. I'm finna crush dem wack EMCEES...WUUUUUUHHHH.....LOL (Yes, as well as studying the Denzinger, I do speak JIVE.)


In order to support "my" position I can quote infallible statements of the extraordinary magisterium as well as infallible statements that are infallible by virtue of being part of the ordinary and UNIVERSAL magisterium.

We can't base our Faith on how we "feel" or on an document by a Theological Commission which even itself says that it is not infallible.

Here's a few more:

[b]Pope Martin V, Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415 - [/b]
Proposition 6:[color="#8b0000"] "Those who claim, that the children of the faithful dying without sacramental baptism will not be saved, are stupid and presumptuous in saying this = [u][size="4"]Condemned[/size][/u]." [/color]Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Vol. 1, p. 422 [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/CONSTANC.HTM#5"]http://www.ewtn.com/.../CONSTANC. HTM#5[/url]

[b]Pope St. Innocent I, in 417, Synod of Milevis[/b] : [color="#a0522d"][size="2"]"[/size][/color][color="#a0522d"][size="2"][b]The idea that infants can be granted the rewards of eternal life even without the grace of baptism is utterly foolish[/b][/size][/color][color="#a0522d"][size="2"]"[/size][/color] [size="2"](DS 219).[/size]
[/quote]

If you're going to mock lets end the convo here! I'm not big on ancient committees, too many apparent contradictions by being written in ways that people misunderstand.
good day!

[RashaLampa]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1306106135' post='2244605']
If you're going to mock lets end the convo here! I'm not big on ancient committees, too many apparent contradictions by being written in ways that people misunderstand.
good day!
[/quote]

I am not mocking anyone. I don't understand what you mean....

[dairygirl4u2c]

how is it that limbo is even a possibility?
does this not say that infants go to hell, and is defined infallibly?
what am i missing?

[quote]Quote

Quote
The teaching of Carthage was infallibly approved as a rule of the Faith by Pope Zosimus and Pope Innocent I and by the ecumenical councils, which were approved by other popes.

“It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: “In my house there are many mansions”: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where happy infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema. For when the Lord says: “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the kingdom of God” [John 3:5], what Catholic will doubt that he will be a partner of the devil who has not deserved to be a coheir of Christ? For he who lacks the right part will without doubt run into the left [cf. Matt. 25:41,46].”

“Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.” ( Matthew 25:41, 46)

Pope Gregory the Great (-604) taught the eternal torment of infants in his Moralia on the Book of Job.



Gregory the Great: “For there be some that are withdrawn from the present light, before they attain to shew forth the good or evil deserts of an active life. And whereas the Sacraments of salvation do not free them from the sin of their birth, at the same time that here they never did aright by their own act; there they are brought to torment. And these have one wound, viz. to be born in corruption, and another, to die in the flesh. ....... As if reviewing the woes of mankind he said in plain words; ‘With what sort of visitation does the strict Judge mercilessly slay those, whom the guilt of their own deeds condemns, if He smites for all eternity even those, whom the guilt of deliberate choice does not impeach?’” (Moralia 9:[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

simple, Rasha is saying Limbo is part of Hell, the outskirts if you will, where there is seperation from God, but no positive punishment.


Very Dante of him. Apparently dead babies are hanging out withthe virtuous pagans.

[RashaLampa]

No the reason I say that is not because of Dante it is because the Holy Ecumenical[u][b] Councils of Florence and Lyons II[/b][/u] say that ALL those who depart in mortal sin or ORIGINAL SIN only descend into hell. Therefore, limbo [u][b]HAS TO[/b][/u] be a part of hell.

[RashaLampa]

Interestingly enough, Bill Strom, a Catholic apologist wrote an article on Pope Zozimus's tractora: [url="http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/04/limbo-and-st-zozimuss-tractoria.html"]http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/04/limbo-and-st-zozimuss-tractoria.html[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RashaLampa' timestamp='1306108819' post='2244622']
No the reason I say that is not because of Dante it is because the Holy Ecumenical[u][b] Councils of Florence and Lyons II[/b][/u] say that ALL those who depart in mortal sin or ORIGINAL SIN only descend into hell. Therefore, limbo [u][b]HAS TO[/b][/u] be a part of hell.
[/quote]


I didn't say it was because of Dante, I said it was like Dante.


You need to develop your sense of humor my friend.

[RashaLampa]

Hey I thought my jive talk counts for a sense of humor, LOL.