Church Architecture

[Justin86]

[quote name='kujo' post='1521307' date='May 8 2008, 02:19 AM']Here's another perspective on the stadium seating.

Maybe it is an attempt to make sure that everyone as an opportunity to experience the mass visually. I know that in some old school cathedrals (St. Patrick's in Manhattan comes to mind), it can be extremely difficult to see if you are in the back row. With stadium seating, it allows everyone to see better...so long as it doesn't become like a hockey arena or something.

I don't know that that is the reasoning and I could be completely wrong. Now, if they put a scoreboard up and some 52" plasma screens....that would be a different story.... [/quote]
I have an absolute need to see what's going on? Reverence to God is, always, always, the most important thing.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='kujo' post='1521307' date='May 7 2008, 06:19 PM']Here's another perspective on the stadium seating.

Maybe it is an attempt to make sure that everyone as an opportunity to experience the mass visually. I know that in some old school cathedrals (St. Patrick's in Manhattan comes to mind), it can be extremely difficult to see if you are in the back row. With stadium seating, it allows everyone to see better...so long as it doesn't become like a hockey arena or something.

I don't know that that is the reasoning and I could be completely wrong. Now, if they put a scoreboard up and some 52" plasma screens....that would be a different story.... [/quote]

Thanks to the Polish immigrants, several London churches are so full on Sundays that you have people kneeling on the pavement outside because they can't get in. I had to do that at a church in Palestine once. It was not the most comfortable experience in the world, but I still knew where I was and Who I was there for, even though I couldn't see.

The most important things about the Mass cannot be seen by the human eye anyway. Vision is not that important. Just knowledge of where you are.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='SJP' post='1521100' date='May 7 2008, 01:22 AM']There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable in a Church, as a matter of fact, it's a healthy disposition. I was actually reading about a related issue earlier today:
Ronald Knox: The Mass In Slow Motion, 1954.

With respect to the cost of building "big grand churches," Glorifying God is never a waste.[/quote]


I'm uncomfortable in buildings with high ceilings, not just churches. That means large mall thoroughfares and banquet halls the like.

And its not the building cost that I feel about its the maintenance costs and the heating costs. It's not really good stewardship, and we know this now...whereas in the middle ages they didn't understand the environmental impact of energy creation and waste. And with less people they didn't have to be concerned. Also as someone who's dabbled in architecture I know it's simply not very safe to repair a 100+ foot ceiling church or mall. And they do need repair before gobs of ancient plaster come down on someone's head.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1519781' date='May 5 2008, 07:06 PM']Modern churches are often ugly. The more I look into theology, the more I realize why good church architecture is important.

Here's a little fun for you...download Google Sketch-up and design the kind of church you'd like to see...it's a fun program once you get used to it...I've made lots of cool church designs.

The following is one example...it's not transparent, I just made it look that way so you could see the inside and outside at once:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v172/PrRaphael/TranslucentChurch.jpg[/img][/quote]
Man, I might just end up designing the altar and such! I didn't know you could make the walls transparent!

[quote name='SJP' post='1520687' date='May 6 2008, 05:18 PM']They might as well celebrate Mass in an airplane hanger. I could just imagine where the Tabernacle is located... "take a right, go down the hall, down the first set of stairs and look behind my 1971 Barney vestment, and voila!"

There is actually some beautiful work being done that truly glorifies God... Duncan Stroik comes to mind: [url="http://stroik.com/"]http://stroik.com/[/url][/quote]
Wow. That IS beautiful. The Guadalupe Shrine has an actual High altar, and not a freestanding one. Crazygood. I think all the altars in my diocese are freestanding. Alas...

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1520691' date='May 6 2008, 05:22 PM']That is truely beautiful.


BTW, can anyone E-Mail me that Google Sketch-up tool? My computer is sooooo fracked it won't even download a thing from google now, (I would nuke the comp and start over but my Brother has some stuff on it still so, no nukeage)[/quote]
Lawl. I know the feeling. Nuking computers is fun! But not if there are files to back up.

[quote name='Deo Iuvente' post='1520881' date='May 6 2008, 08:06 PM']I wish people wouldn't bring up cost. Do you know who built those beautiful churches we see? Not the rich, but the poor. People saved up for years, scratching up pennies and dimes, and single dollars to build a church. My parish is a good example. It was built by the Irish factory workers who went to manayunk daily to work for almost nothing, yet they still built [url="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1428874476_e5e51776d7.jpg?v=0"]This[/url]. My parish is still not rich. A little better of than before, but we certainly don't have people with a lot of money, yet four years ago, we restored the whole thing, and reversed the changes that came in with the "Spirit of Vatican II". Now, we're on a capital campaign to fix the windows and the bells, which we could'nt afford then. Peasants built those rich cathedrals we see. Poor farmers built those wonderful churches we see in Idaho. What reason do rich suburbanites have for building stadiums with little or no Catholic imagery, with terrible layouts and the tabernacle out somewhere? If people who made less than us could build St.Patrick's, why do we build the Taj Mahoney? Yes, it took my parish nearly 20 years to get to [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdtreat/1352541024/in/set-72157601835885816/"]This[/url], but it's well worth it. Let's build God a palace, not a trailer.[/quote]
Great post.

[dominicansoul]

They don't necessarily have to have tall high ceilings and "waste energy". I'm speaking mostly of BEAUTY and structures allowing an environment conducive to reverence. I believe the Tabernacle should always be the central point of the whole building. The Altar should be certainly it's high point (not surrounded by stadium seating...,) worshippers facing the Altar and the Sanctuary set apart to symbolize it's importance. My parish church is a tiny little chapel in the woods. No high ceilings. Beautiful raredo's behind the altar, pews in their traditional setting, steps separating the pews from the Altar and Sanctuary. Simple, efficient and beautiful.

As for the Catholics of the Middle-ages not understanding the environment and the high cost and saving energy, etcetera...I have absolutely no idea what the people of the past knew about these things...all I can say at looking at the structures they have left behind is "WOW!" Worship of God was definitely important to them, and they surely held God in high regard! To sacrifice so much money and time and talents all for building such magnificent structures says a lot about where their hearts must have been.

I'm thankful to our faithful brethren. I'm thankful for what they have left behind. Can you imagine St. Peter's Basilica looking any differently? I can't!

[Galloglasses]

It may also be interesting to note there is a Dominican friary in Newry City that looks rather quaint and small on the outside, then when you step in its like being smacked to the face with a bucket of water. High arced roof, pillars with alcoves at the top of them with statues, STATUES of Saints there. A beautiful and grand Pipe Organ on the second floor, (who the caretaker told me was paid for BY THE PARISH PEOPLE several years ago within a week on donations alone.), the beuty and majesty of the place is astounding.

[SJP]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1522759' date='May 8 2008, 10:58 PM']I'm uncomfortable in buildings with high ceilings, not just churches. That means large mall thoroughfares and banquet halls the like.

And its not the building cost that I feel about its the maintenance costs and the heating costs. It's not really good stewardship, and we know this now...whereas in the middle ages they didn't understand the environmental impact of energy creation and waste. And with less people they didn't have to be concerned. Also as someone who's dabbled in architecture I know it's simply not very safe to repair a 100+ foot ceiling church or mall. And they do need repair before gobs of ancient plaster come down on someone's head.[/quote]


If there is a conflict between stewardship and worship... worship should take precedence.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='SJP' post='1524753' date='May 11 2008, 10:01 AM']If there is a conflict between stewardship and worship... worship should take precedence.[/quote]


Umm. So there's nothing left for us to thank God about? Absolutely, not in my book. Just as if I were to ever build a house it would be ecologically friendly and create safer ways to repair it, if I were to build a church I'd choose the same for it. Maybe because I'm from the northeast and learned about saints and martyrs who used simplicity to reach people i don't get catheridals.

Would you want to risk someone's life just to have a 150 foot cealing to God?

[Justin86]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1524795' date='May 12 2008, 12:29 AM']Would you want to risk someone's life just to have a 150 foot cealing to God?[/quote]
I don't think that when they built these Gothic cathedrals they were oblivious to falling plaster, and other such objects. Michelangelo got up high enough to paint the Sistine Chapel ceiling so I'm sure they had people up there doing regular maintenance on the ceilings.

Really, everyone thinks that if you lived during the Middle Ages you were a complete retard that didn't have a clue about how stuff worked. That's not reality.

As for "risking someone's life", well we do that to build skyscrapers even more than we do cathedrals. Heck, we risk lives just to keep their windows clean, all in the name for the glory of a city. I fail to see why we shouldn't be doing the same for God.

[Kitty]

Can't we just be grateful that churches are still being built at all rather than grumbling over the architecture?

[Galloglasses]

I risked my life several times getting up on a ladder to clean out the gutters on the roof of my house, a part people weren't even going to seen and thus, my death would be even more pointless.

I fail to see where you're going about we should not build cathedrals and other houses of God where there is a risk. There is a risk to everything, and if said person dies by accident from fallen a couple hundred feet from the cathedral, won't he or she be dieing trying to glorify God anyway?

And I think I speak for myself when I say I don't give two cuds about energy efficency. Least of my troubles.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1524890' date='May 12 2008, 02:48 AM']Can't we just be grateful that churches are still being built at all rather than grumbling over the architecture?[/quote]
If we're going to start settling for minimum expectations we might as well hand out condoms to teens and tell them not to have sex. As Catholics we trust that through the Sacrifice of Christ we can do a lot better than to settle for the expected behavior of our society in ourselves and our children. Why shouldn't our churches reflect that?

*edited for clarity*

Edited May 11, 2008 by Justin86

[Justin86]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1524900' date='May 12 2008, 02:50 AM']And I think I speak for myself when I say I don't give two cuds about energy efficency. Least of my troubles.[/quote]
Exactly. I mean, do they really even try to get heat all the way up to the top of the cathedral? Average height is only six feet you know. There's really no need to make sure its warm and cozy at the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1524905' date='May 11 2008, 12:51 PM']If we're going to start settling for minimum expectations we might as well hand out condoms to teens and tell them not to have sex.[/quote]

o_O Um, what? No, all I'm saying is I think it's a good idea to not be so picky over church architecture and just be glad that our government even allows building of churches.

The designer of the building obviously believed their design to be appropriate for the type of building that was being constructed. Maybe they were not Catholic. It's obvious that they were not intending the building to be disrespectful towards God.

If you're so obsessed with making every church a traditional church, go out and build one yourself.

[Galloglasses]

He probably WILL in the future, we are argueing here both wether the design is important and what we should be doing in the future. I advocate taking the horrible, (artistically speaking), Chruches and renovating them. And making future Churches more appropriate.