Church Architecture

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1519895' date='May 5 2008, 09:03 PM']I know what you mean and I agree its the people who are the Church not the building. I would say the heart of worship is in Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I'm sure you agree.[/quote]

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, dude.

[KnightofChrist]

Well thats just cool, I tellya what.

[Socrates]

[quote name='StColette' post='1518184' date='May 4 2008, 10:14 AM']Sadly, part of the reason for our lack of beautiful architechture that was found in older European and some American Churches is that we no longer can afford such things. Many parishes can barely afford to build their Churches let alone make them extravigant. I do believe they should try a little hard not to make them look so modern. Currently the parish that I work for is finishing up their renovations of their Church. Now from the outside it doesn't look like anything special, still nice looking but nothing like gothic arch. But the inside is beautiful. I would say its more of the inside of the Church that matters. The inside should lift one to the vertical not to the horizontal.

Here's a pic of some of the renovations of the parish I work for. There will be very traditional looking stained glass windows instead of the regular ones that are in the pic.

[img]http://www.stjosephchurch.net/RENO_165_THUMB.jpg[/img][/quote]
While you have a point, in that we shouldn't necessarily judge church architects or parishes for not having the equivalent of gothic cathedrals, I don't think lack of money is the primary problem in most of these ugly, modernistic church buildings. Some of these buildings given as examples are probably quite expensive, and there are quite a few famous costly monstrosities out there (such as Cardinal Mahoney's cathedral in LA). I think some of the worst church buildings are also some of the most expensive - those built to express some architect's dubious modernistic "vision," rather than oriented toward the glory of God.
A building need not be expensive or extravagant to look like a [i]church[/i], rather than a set from a bad sci-fi flick. I've seen quite a few older churches that are simple and unpretentious, yet beautiful and reverent in form. I think a lot of bad church architecture reflects bad theology. Traditional church architecture is based on order and harmony, and a literal "lifting upward" to God. Much of modernistic architecture is asymmetrical, chaotic, and unfocused, or oriented to focus on the congregation rather than God.

And, I might add, the "modernistic" architectural movement is no longer new or modern, but actually goes back some 60 years or so. (Someone once shared photos of a butt-ugly "modern" church building in France, built in the 1930s.)

Edited May 6, 2008 by Socrates

[Galloglasses]

I can fully agree with Socrates.

There used to be a small, blue 'Wooden' Church in a nearby Parish that served a couple hundred or so parishoners. Very small, no bigger then a chapel really, and very simple. But the Architecture was very traditional. (It was either wooden or made out of Limestone, can't remember. Limestone's cheap here), it was taken down and a newer, 'modern' Church built to serve the Parish. And goodness sake its far from beuatiful. Not bad, but not beautiful, the stain glasses are pretty nonsensical. The Lourdes shrine outside of it has no real statues, just an image of our Lady made out of iron framework painted white.

It is not snooty to consider something artistically poor for use in the service and worship of God. If you're building anything for the sake of God, you have to remember when everyone's gone, He's still going to be there. Would you have built a house for your Father that was more focused on its guests then it is on focusing His guests on Him?

While I will not advocate we tear these modern monstrosities down, they've been consecrated and that would be unneccesarily costly, much wiser would be to 'improve them. Put in better stain glasses, turn the conference room congregations into truely altar/tabernacle centric. We should learn tha our Cathedrals and Churches in the future should be designed better then this modern era monstrosities and take what we have now, and improve them best we can.

[SJP]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1517928' date='May 4 2008, 01:19 AM'][img]http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/justin86_bucket/Faith/DSC01117.jpg[/img][/quote]

They might as well celebrate Mass in an airplane hanger. I could just imagine where the Tabernacle is located... "take a right, go down the hall, down the first set of stairs and look behind my 1971 Barney vestment, and voila!"

There is actually some beautiful work being done that truly glorifies God... Duncan Stroik comes to mind: [url="http://stroik.com/"]http://stroik.com/[/url]

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='SJP' post='1520687' date='May 6 2008, 04:18 PM']There is actually some beautiful work being done that truly glorifies God... Duncan Stroik comes to mind: [url="http://stroik.com/"]http://stroik.com/[/url][/quote]

That is truely beautiful.


BTW, can anyone E-Mail me that Google Sketch-up tool? My computer is sooooo fracked it won't even download a thing from google now, (I would nuke the comp and start over but my Brother has some stuff on it still so, no nukeage)

[SJP]

Here is another great site: [url="http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/"]The Institue For Sacred Architecture[/url]

[Autumn Dusk]

I do not like big grand, churches. I feel really nervous in them and in all honesty, they are full of waste as it takes alot of money to heat them or cool them.

Modern churches I believe, aren't done to offend the sences, but rather becuase of the modern worldly way of designing. In the old days when many churches were built ALL fancy buildings were out of stone with ornate work (if possible). I'll be as people introduced new styles they all gathered round the new church and called it ugly.

[Deo Iuvente]

I wish people wouldn't bring up cost. Do you know who built those beautiful churches we see? Not the rich, but the poor. People saved up for years, scratching up pennies and dimes, and single dollars to build a church. My parish is a good example. It was built by the Irish factory workers who went to manayunk daily to work for almost nothing, yet they still built [url="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1428874476_e5e51776d7.jpg?v=0"]This[/url]. My parish is still not rich. A little better of than before, but we certainly don't have people with a lot of money, yet four years ago, we restored the whole thing, and reversed the changes that came in with the "Spirit of Vatican II". Now, we're on a capital campaign to fix the windows and the bells, which we could'nt afford then. Peasants built those rich cathedrals we see. Poor farmers built those wonderful churches we see in Idaho. What reason do rich suburbanites have for building stadiums with little or no Catholic imagery, with terrible layouts and the tabernacle out somewhere? If people who made less than us could build St.Patrick's, why do we build the Taj Mahoney? Yes, it took my parish nearly 20 years to get to [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdtreat/1352541024/in/set-72157601835885816/"]This[/url], but it's well worth it. Let's build God a palace, not a trailer.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Deo Iuvente

[Justin86]

[quote name='Deo Iuvente' post='1520881' date='May 7 2008, 10:06 AM']What reason do rich suburbanites have for building stadiums with little or no Catholic imagery, with terrible layouts and the tabernacle out somewhere?[/quote]
Shhhh, don't make the rich feel bad now! Just let them tell themselves that it only costs too much money for a real church so they have to build a bowling alley instead.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1521002' date='May 6 2008, 09:35 PM']Shhhh, don't make the rich feel bad now! Just let them tell themselves that it only costs too much money for a real church so they have to build a bowling alley instead.[/quote]
F*** it, Dude. Let's go bowling.

[dominicansoul]

I think in the past, people were trying their very best to build churches worthy of celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and housing the Presence of God. These grand cathedrals took decades to build, and lots of money, but I doubt they actually counted the costs. I'm pretty sure they felt it was worth it! It was after all for the glory of the Almighty God!

Today, I don't believe much thought goes into giving God glory anymore, seeing that a high percentage of Catholics don't believe God is Present in the Blessed Sacrament. That is what has happened...our lukewarmness and ignorance of Faith is somehow reflected on everything...the church buildings, the music, the Liturgy...I find it all lacking the splendor and beauty of the Church of the past...it is as if we are giving God the bare minimum....and not really our best work!

As for the way certain Churches are designed, such as the example posted earlier, where everything comes to a circle and surrounds the round-table altar...it makes me wonder what is really being offered to God in this building? Where is the tabernacle? Shouldn't Jesus Christ be in the center of the Church? ...at least, the tabernacle should be somewhere visible to the visitor (like off to the side, which I never really felt was right, but the Church allows it...) I would really like to question the architects and the persons involved in the design of churches like that. What exactly are their intentions? There doesn't seem to be anything sacred in that design. There are people in one of the photos walking on and around the altar area. Again, the cathedrals and churches of the past were conducive to prayer and reverence...today's architecture destroys that atmosphere. No sense of the sacred in these poorly structured churches! I wonder if God is insulted! He certainly deserves better!

Edited May 7, 2008 by dominicansoul

[SJP]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1520800' date='May 6 2008, 08:02 PM']I do not like big grand, churches. I feel really nervous in them and in all honesty, they are full of waste as it takes alot of money to heat them or cool them.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable in a Church, as a matter of fact, it's a healthy disposition. I was actually reading about a related issue earlier today:

[quote]you oughtn't ever go to Mass, and still more obviously you oughtn't ever go to Communion, without this sense of shyness, this sense of butting in somewhere where you aren't wanted. We're terribly in danger all the time of taking God's goodness too much for granted; of bouncing up to Communion as if it were the most natural thing in the world, instead of it being a supernatural thing belonging to another world.[/quote]
Ronald Knox: The Mass In Slow Motion, 1954.

With respect to the cost of building "big grand churches," Glorifying God is never a waste.

[Justin86]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1521072' date='May 7 2008, 01:52 PM']I think in the past, people were trying their very best to build churches worthy of celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and housing the Presence of God. These grand cathedrals took decades to build, and lots of money, but I doubt they actually counted the costs. I'm pretty sure they felt it was worth it! It was after all for the glory of the Almighty God!

Today, I don't believe much thought goes into giving God glory anymore, seeing that a high percentage of Catholics don't believe God is Present in the Blessed Sacrament. That is what has happened...our lukewarmness and ignorance of Faith is somehow reflected on everything...the church buildings, the music, the Liturgy...I find it all lacking the splendor and beauty of the Church of the past...it is as if we are giving God the bare minimum....and not really our best work![/quote]
You're probably right. When I went to a TLM I noticed that everything seemed very much focused on the altar, and the priest's role as mediator was made much more obvious. The Novus Ordo, minus the tabernacle, and the priest facing the people seems more like the priest and the congregation are having a conversation together.

[quote]As for the way certain Churches are designed, such as the example posted earlier, where everything comes to a circle and surrounds the round-table altar...it makes me wonder what is really being offered to God in this building? Where is the tabernacle? Shouldn't Jesus Christ be in the center of the Church? ...at least, the tabernacle should be somewhere visible to the visitor (like off to the side, which I never really felt was right, but the Church allows it...) I would really like to question the architects and the persons involved in the design of churches like that. What exactly are their intentions? There doesn't seem to be anything sacred in that design. There are people in one of the photos walking on and around the altar area. Again, the cathedrals and churches of the past were conducive to prayer and reverence...today's architecture destroys that atmosphere. No sense of the sacred in these poorly structured churches! I wonder if God is insulted! He certainly deserves better![/quote]
Well, supposedly the intention was stadium seating (why on earth do our churches need that?). As for the people walking on and around the altar area, thats what I was trying to capture, the complete lack of reverence. People do that there without a second thought . What kind of church is designed with no reverence in mind?

Edited May 7, 2008 by Justin86

[kujo]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1521297' date='May 7 2008, 01:08 PM']Well, supposedly the intention was stadium seating (why on earth do our churches need that?). As for the people walking on and around the altar area, thats what I was trying to capture, the complete lack of reverence. People do that there without a second thought . What kind of church is designed with no reverence in mind?[/quote]

Here's another perspective on the stadium seating.

Maybe it is an attempt to make sure that everyone as an opportunity to experience the mass visually. I know that in some old school cathedrals (St. Patrick's in Manhattan comes to mind), it can be extremely difficult to see if you are in the back row. With stadium seating, it allows everyone to see better...so long as it doesn't become like a hockey arena or something.

I don't know that that is the reasoning and I could be completely wrong. Now, if they put a scoreboard up and some 52" plasma screens....that would be a different story....