Dispensing Contraceptives

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516434' date='May 1 2008, 10:15 PM']I think abortion is legal because people fail to see the fact that the fetus/unborn baby is, in fact, a human entitled to the same rights and protections that the rest of us have. I think if everyone accepted that, then they would believe that abortion is wrong because they already accept that murder (or the taking of another human's life) is wrong.[/quote]


Honestly your not thinking, and your stance lays on sinking sand, right and wrong imply morality. Without morality there is no right and wrong. You can not argue against laws based on morality, and immorality yet agrue for laws based on right and wrong. Right is just another word for moral and just, and wrong is just another word for immoral and unjust. It isnt going to matter a hill of beans if people see the preborns as human or nonhuman as long as they lack the morals to end the immorality of killing babies. Your argument that preborn children should be given rights is a moral one. There are in fact many pro aborts, most in power that know the child exist and is human yet very much lack the morals to make such a immoral practice illegal. For the ones that fail to see that the children are human those people lack the morality to see that fact much like persons who lack the morality to see that blacks where fully human, and not property of another man.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1516126' date='May 1 2008, 09:47 PM']You can spend TOO MUCH time on an NFP board? [/quote]
Well, I'm a geek. And I'm related to 2 OB/GYNs, so I'm used to talking about things like this.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516218' date='May 1 2008, 11:16 PM']Interesting... I'd heard through a priest I know of a couple that practiced NFP while the wife on taking contraception for some medical reason. Maybe they used the thermal method and something else (aren't there like 3 or 4 methods?) that isn't affected so much by the pill.[/quote]
I think Picchick answered this well. Except for the rhythm method, they all use markers determined by the change in hormones. Now, I suppose they could use the rhythm method while on the pill.


[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 2 2008, 12:06 AM']Then you've got the Billings method that is the mucus one. This one to me is so interesting because of all the physiology behind it. I won't get into though cause some people might think its gross.[/quote]
Yeah, it really fascinates me (and I think I amuse my BOM instructor sometimes, too). Man, why doesn't Phatmass still have their NFP group?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']One is the Calendar methon or rhythm method. This is where the menstrual cycles are recorded over several months. Then the woman assumes the ovulation occurs 14 days before the start of her period. It is better to use this with one of the other methods because ovulation can pretty much occur anytime.[/quote]

Yeah, that's the one that gives NFP a bad name I thought this method was avoided entirely due to its lack of reliability. They should call it the Windows method (sorry, geek joke there).

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']Another is the Basal body temp. The theory behind this is that the woman's temp will drop before ovulation. It is pretty reliable.

Then you've got the Billings method that is the mucus one. This one to me is so interesting because of all the physiology behind it. I won't get into though cause some people might think its gross.[/quote]

Eww... boogers.

Now, another interesting thing I also heard during one of our Theology of the Body discussions was that the science behind NFP is essentially the same science behind contraception. Seems to make sense, and good to know for those who think NFP can't be as effective as the pill.

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']So the pill really shouldn't be used the the last one for sure considering that the hormones will really mess everything up.[/quote]

Agree. Hormones [i]really[/i] mess everything up.

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']Also, you should take into consideration that the pill holds the hormones steady to prevent ovulation. On the days that the woman has her period is the "placebo" pills. This allows the hormones to drop and menstration follows. The temperature changes reflects, I believe the fluctuation in hormones. I don't know how they did any of the methods if the woman's hormones aren't changing. I mean I guess that they could have but the woman would not have been ovulating so there would be no ovulation detected on her records.[/quote]

Ya know what... now that I take the time to think about what the priest said... the couple abstained from sex entirely while she was on the pill. She was prescribed for medical reasons and since they had no way of knowing if fertilization might occur and didn't want to have contraceptive sex (even though it wouldn't have been sinful by Church teaching due to the medical need), they chose to abstain until whenever she no longer needed the prescription.

Quite admirable, I have to say.

Sorry for the misinformation.

[quote name='picchick' post='1516271' date='May 1 2008, 08:06 PM']I have pictures if you guys need it. Man I wish I had a chalk board![/quote]

I actually find all this rather fascinating... if anyone thinks it's gross, they should take it up with God. It's interesting how much of life revolves around cycles... seasons, animal migrations, the death and life cycle of everything from insects to human civilizations, and even our daily routines, the Liturgy of the Hours, and the Church calendar. There's a fascinating mix of simplicity and complexity in it all.

That's a little peek inside my head at 9:14am...

Edited May 2, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516577' date='May 2 2008, 02:14 PM']Now, another interesting thing I also heard during one of our Theology of the Body discussions was that the science behind NFP is essentially the same science behind contraception. Seems to make sense, and good to know for those who think NFP can't be as effective as the pill.[/quote]
Now if I could just find a doctor who understood that. . .
[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1516577' date='May 2 2008, 02:14 PM']Ya know what... now that I take the time to think about what the priest said... the couple abstained from sex entirely while she was on the pill. She was prescribed for medical reasons and since they had no way of knowing if fertilization might occur and didn't want to have contraceptive sex (even though it wouldn't have been sinful by Church teaching due to the medical need), they chose to abstain until whenever she no longer needed the prescription.[/quote] Quite admirable.

[kujo]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1516450' date='May 2 2008, 12:33 AM']I have an attitude, Be an example, not a finger pointer. I allow people to live anyway they want, while living the life Christ has decided for me. I have to go through some awful stuff, but in the end, the rewards are eternal. I don't want anybody to have to live through the life I live.

Beyond the eternal benefits, there are some amazing temporal benefits.

Now, I know I am about to open a whole can of worms with what I am about to say, but I think it is very appropriate I share at this time.

Ritalin is really a poison. It is way over prescribed to parents who are just plain lazy.

As a child, I was active, as most Boys are. Yes, to the ones who have been calling me a girl for a couple of weeks now, I am not, LOL!

Now because I have an really wild imagination and lots of energy as a boy, the educators told my mom I had ADHD (not true as this is a permanent condition - and a recent psycho-educational assessment ruled me out - you don't grow out of ADHD, ever!).

I did develop a Learning Disability, I had an awful short term memory, until one day, I read how Ritalin actually causes short term memory brain damage. . .

I know I didn't have ADHD, but was forced to take 'medication' anyways. I asked God - Lord, I never made a choice to take Ritalin, I had to obey my mother. So repair the brain damage this has caused me, as I shouldn't have to pay for the sins of the people who forced me to take this poison.

Guess what, before then, I was having a good day remember two or three numbers out of a phone number in a row. Now, on good days I can remember each number of a phone number if I listen to it, all ten digits!

Serving God has benefits in the temporal, and serving God certainly has benefits in the eternal.[/quote]

I rejoice at the healing that God's love has given to you in your life, my friend. You will find no one more gracious about this sort of thing than I. I, too, have experienced God's great gifts and blessings and am a firm believer in following Mary's [i]fiat[/i] in my life.

As for your "be an example" thing, I agree too. St. Francis of Assisi said "Preach the Gospel at all times...when necessary, use words." That doesn't mean we are to sit back, live our lives and let our brothers and sisters continue in sin without a little intervention. I don't think it's appropriate for us to condemn and convict people we don't know; however, I do think that relational ministry can provide us with great opportunities to evangelize. It's those times where we can share about God's love and desire for our hearts, the blessings that you and I have been given. Yet, up until and after those times, we are to pray for and allow people to make their own decisions.

My old Youth Minister once told me that evangelization is the process of planting seeds of God's love. We plant the seeds and wait for God to rain down and harvest them.

Peace, my friend.
[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1516481' date='May 2 2008, 01:32 AM']Honestly your not thinking, and your stance lays on sinking sand, right and wrong imply morality. Without morality there is no right and wrong. You can not argue against laws based on morality, and immorality yet agrue for laws based on right and wrong. Right is just another word for moral and just, and wrong is just another word for immoral and unjust. It isnt going to matter a hill of beans if people see the preborns as human or nonhuman as long as they lack the morals to end the immorality of killing babies. Your argument that preborn children should be given rights is a moral one. There are in fact many pro aborts, most in power that know the child exist and is human yet very much lack the morals to make such a immoral practice illegal. For the ones that fail to see that the children are human those people lack the morality to see that fact much like persons who lack the morality to see that blacks where fully human, and not property of another man.[/quote]

I think we are arguing for the same thing, but from different perspectives. I find nothing that you say [i]wrong[/i] but I do look at things differently. Perhaps it's because of the way I think (I am a very logical and scientifically minded person), but I see babies as human beings because of the medical evidence that we've all seen. I believe that God has revealed that information to me in the way that I would understand and take to heart. All the other stuff, about the preciousness of all human life, the immorality of the lifestyle that leads up to needing most abortions...all of that has been revealed and kneeded into my heart over time. I don't disagree with those things, for they are the bedrock of my faith; however, I think that the laws against abortion needn't reflect any more or less morality than our laws against murder.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1516830' date='May 2 2008, 04:32 PM']I think we are arguing for the same thing, but from different perspectives. I find nothing that you say [i]wrong[/i] but I do look at things differently. Perhaps it's because of the way I think (I am a very logical and scientifically minded person), but I see babies as human beings because of the medical evidence that we've all seen. I believe that God has revealed that information to me in the way that I would understand and take to heart.[/quote]

If we are both arguing laws should be based in the truth of Christian morality, then yes we are arguing the same thing. Which basic foundation is do not kill or harm someone or let them harm themselves. I still do not understand a stance which argues against laws based in morality but for laws based on right and wrong. Someone would easily respond that you can not force your version of "right and wrong" on them. What if there where no medical or scientific evidence, would you argue the illegalization of abortion solely on faith and Church teaching?

[quote name='kujo' post='1516830' date='May 2 2008, 04:32 PM']All the other stuff, about the preciousness of all human life, the immorality of the lifestyle that leads up to needing most abortions...all of that has been revealed and kneeded into my heart over time. I don't disagree with those things, for they are the bedrock of my faith; however, I think that the laws against abortion needn't reflect any more or less morality than our laws against murder.[/quote]

You have to be more clear. Certainly it is more wicked to murder a child than an adult.

[picchick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1516845' date='May 2 2008, 06:02 PM']You have to be more clear. Certainly it is more wicked to murder a child than an adult.[/quote]

Really?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1516845' date='May 2 2008, 05:02 PM']You have to be more clear. Certainly it is more wicked to murder a child than an adult.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I agree. When I think of how men are killed for standing against the evils of society, like Abraham Lincoln and John Fitzgerald Kennedy, I get just as angry as hearing about a child who has been raped, murdered, or truly abused.

The fear of the Lord is to hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) evil. There is no sin that I don't get angry about. Even a white lie, I get this anger in the spirit that is very powerful.

This is the whole, some sins are greater than other sins stuff, which is an entirely different thread. I would say, I have done some of the most blasphemous things, and I truly feel like I am the least of men for what I have done, but I know all these sins are just sins against the son, and we can ask for forgiveness.

Now, if we were to lie to one with the holy spirit

[quote]But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.[/quote]

Peter hits the nail on the head with one statement. Why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost?

To sin against the holy spirit is to give yourself back to Satan and do his will.

For me, I can never go back to something God has already closed the door on. I can't. I could probably quence the holy spirit, but that in itself is a deadly sin. I can never look back on the time small steps God lead me through to reach where I am now. Regreting the past is something foreign to me. Although I plan for my future, I know ultimately it is in God's hands. I live for what is happening right now, because there is nothing else I can live for anymore. Sometimes Lucifer says to me, why do I live as a sacrifice. Wasn't it better when you never knew the way this world worked. Wouldn't it be better to be that good pentecostal you use to be? I admit, if I could go back, the pain and torment I have to go through would be greatly lessened, but at the same time, I would lose my immortal soul. What profitteth a man if he gained the whole world, but lost his soul?

Each time when I heard that message and have that thought, I rebuke it, and plea the blood over my mind and heart again, I know there is only one thing to do, live in this moment and look to the future.

That is the one thing we need to learn, the greatest sin, is the sin of knowing what God's will in your life is, and rejecting that will. You are his, and you should give up on what you want, and give all to him. Then it becomes his pleasure to make sure all the things you give up for him become a reality.

Now I have taken this thread way off topic. Thanks Guys!

Edited May 2, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='picchick' post='1516882' date='May 2 2008, 06:07 PM']Really?[/quote]

Both are very wicked, there is no doubt in that. But when someone murders a child... a child... for someone to murder a child. Think of it this way I guess, someone punches a man, someone else punches a baby. One is worse than the other correct?

[picchick]

Oh ok. I get what your saying

I guess I see murder as horrible no matter who or what does it. But when you replace with punch...i get it.