fides quarens intellectum Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1515238' date='Apr 30 2008, 02:34 PM']So, we should start making people pay extra money when they engage in activities that are immoral? Sounds like a Church tax to me.[/quote] Do you have a problem with sin taxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1515242' date='Apr 30 2008, 04:38 PM']Do you have a problem with sin taxes?[/quote] Absolutely. You cannot tax someone into a moral lifestyle. Doesn't seem like something Jesus would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1515191' date='Apr 30 2008, 02:44 PM']Even if it was a refill, it was still her prescription. Not transferring it meant that she probably had to return to the doctor. That may have cost her money.[/quote] Or she could've waited two days until there was a different pharmacist there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 She obviously wanted to make a statement. Which medical fields could you go into without worrying about the moral implications? I guess EMT, and X-ray technician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Well, EMT you might. Nothing comes to mind immediately, but I'm sure things happen. X-Ray tech, probably not so much. I'm going into Physical therapy, and I can't think of any there, or with cardiac or pulmonary rehab... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1515245' date='Apr 30 2008, 02:39 PM']Absolutely. You cannot tax someone into a moral lifestyle. Doesn't seem like something Jesus would do.[/quote] What about legislating morality in general, are you against that as well? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1515331' date='Apr 30 2008, 06:21 PM']What about legislating morality in general, are you against that as well? Just curious.[/quote] I am. I think that federal and state governments should not be in the position to be enforcing a state-mandated morality. I think an essential part of humanity is choice. There are some choices that are such that they would disrupt the order and safety of society (i.e.- murder, rape, theft, etc.); however, I just don't see the good in governments getting involved in morality. As I alluded to before, if we delegate this power to the GOOD sovereign, it will inevitably fall in the hands of the BAD sovereign. A far better thing for us to do is team up with our evangelical brothers and sisters in an effort to promote chastity. We should deal at the micro-level, encouraging our brothers and sisters to live a lifestyle in line with the truth about their sexuality. But ENFORCING that lifestyle? I have a problem with that. I think it is beyond the scope of our government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1515238' date='Apr 30 2008, 03:34 PM']I'm sorry to say that it is well within the rights of the company to fire him. He has the right to religion, he has the right to his moral beliefs, but he [b]does not [/b]have the right to work at a pharmacy. He could've chosen any other profession, one that would not cause him to be involved in any immoral activities. But he chose to work in the field he did, knowing full well that he would be exposed to this sort of thing. Companies have the right to inform their employers of requirements when they are hired. Again, if he knew this was a possibility and went ahead anyway, the bag is in his hands[/quote] Maybe the nursing is different than pharmacists in regards to doing things against you conscience.... In nursing, if you do not want to take care of a patient that is scheduled for an abortion you can say, "It is against my beliefs to participate in this activity." If you are asked to participate, lets say, in an activity that revolves around euthanaisa, you can say, "I want no part in this." The hopsital cannot fire you even if they are upfront with you. I have chosen to be a nurse. I know that I am entering a world of never ending moral/ethical problems. To enumerate them would be massive. However, that cannot stop me from entering the profession. If this were so you would have no one to care for you except nurses who don't give a hoot about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1515358' date='Apr 30 2008, 06:51 PM']Maybe the nursing is different than pharmacists in regards to doing things against you conscience.... In nursing, if you do not want to take care of a patient that is scheduled for an abortion you can say, "It is against my beliefs to participate in this activity." If you are asked to participate, lets say, in an activity that revolves around euthanaisa, you can say, "I want no part in this." The hopsital cannot fire you even if they are upfront with you. I have chosen to be a nurse. I know that I am entering a world of never ending moral/ethical problems. To enumerate them would be massive. However, that cannot stop me from entering the profession. If this were so you would have no one to care for you except nurses who don't give a hoot about anything.[/quote] Perhaps it's different. My mom is a nurse and VERY Catholic (she's known as "her holiness" in her hospital, actually). But the article said that the dude should've informed his employer of his views upfront so that they can make arrangements or not hire him at all. He didn't, so he put himself in the position to be fired. I take issue with your final statement about being left with nurses who "don't give a hoot about anything." I don't know if you meant it in a frivilous way or were being serious, but I think it's this mentality that does more harm than good. You can be an avowed-atheist and a great nurse. You can be a nun and a crappy care-giver. Your faith doesn't necessarily make you a great nurse. Furthermore, you can be a nice, caring, loving, compassionate person without being a Christian. Trust me...I live with 2 such people! But again...you may not have meant it in that way. I just had to put that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1515354' date='Apr 30 2008, 04:45 PM']I am. I think that federal and state governments should not be in the position to be enforcing a state-mandated morality. I think an essential part of humanity is choice. There are some choices that are such that they would disrupt the order and safety of society (i.e.- murder, rape, theft, etc.); however, I just don't see the good in governments getting involved in morality. As I alluded to before, if we delegate this power to the GOOD sovereign, it will inevitably fall in the hands of the BAD sovereign. A far better thing for us to do is team up with our evangelical brothers and sisters in an effort to promote chastity. We should deal at the micro-level, encouraging our brothers and sisters to live a lifestyle in line with the truth about their sexuality. But ENFORCING that lifestyle? I have a problem with that. I think it is beyond the scope of our government.[/quote] Hmm. i used to be a utilitarian, before my conversion, so i do have an appreciation for your line of reasoning. Also, i do agree that we need to promote chastity - no question. i think the simplest response for me to make is that, like it or not, we do legislate morality, and people do tend to look to the law for moral standards. It's like the parent setting rules before the child is old enough to understand why; it's like God giving us the ten commandments when we were children, before Jesus taught us the simplest way to obey those commandments, love. i admit, it has been a while since i read him, but i believe JS Mill even talked about when it would be acceptable/necessary to legislate things for the masses, for their best interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1515364' date='Apr 30 2008, 05:59 PM']Perhaps it's different. My mom is a nurse and VERY Catholic (she's known as "her holiness" in her hospital, actually). But the article said that the dude should've informed his employer of his views upfront so that they can make arrangements or not hire him at all. He didn't, so he put himself in the position to be fired. I take issue with your final statement about being left with nurses who "don't give a hoot about anything." I don't know if you meant it in a frivilous way or were being serious, but I think it's this mentality that does more harm than good. You can be an avowed-atheist and a great nurse. You can be a nun and a crappy care-giver. Your faith doesn't necessarily make you a great nurse. Furthermore, you can be a nice, caring, loving, compassionate person without being a Christian. Trust me...I live with 2 such people! But again...you may not have meant it in that way. I just had to put that out there.[/quote] I'm sorry I didn't read that first part of you statement. I stand corrected. Oh no! I didn't mean that at all! I mean, I am very serious about my statement but faith has nothing to do with being a caring person. If you do not care about ethical moral decisions, or if you are not in a process of inquiry then how can you care for the patients that are in those moral/ethical problems? I hope that makes it more clear. I have friends who will be nurses who I would trust my life and my family's life with and they have no faith in God. They are some of the most caring people I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1515368' date='Apr 30 2008, 07:07 PM']Hmm. i used to be a utilitarian, before my conversion, so i do have an appreciation for your line of reasoning. Also, i do agree that we need to promote chastity - no question. i think the simplest response for me to make is that, like it or not, we do legislate morality, and people do tend to look to the law for moral standards. It's like the parent setting rules before the child is old enough to understand why; it's like God giving us the ten commandments when we were children, before Jesus taught us the simplest way to obey those commandments, love. i admit, it has been a while since i read him, but i believe JS Mill even talked about when it would be acceptable/necessary to legislate things for the masses, for their best interest.[/quote] I don't look to the State for moral guidance. And I think anyone who does is severely mistaken. But I respect your views and agree with them, to an extent. I don't think the best way to deal with these tendencies towards sins is to make them illegal; rather, I think we need to evangelize better, preaching the Gospel of Love that our Lord gave to us. It reminds me of the premise of [u]Footloose[/u]--just because they outlawed dancing, doesn't mean that the inclination towards the sin they feared had gone anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='picchick' post='1515371' date='Apr 30 2008, 07:12 PM']Oh no! I didn't mean that at all! I mean, I am very serious about my statement but faith has nothing to do with being a caring person. If you do not care about ethical moral decisions, or if you are not in a process of inquiry then how can you care for the patients that are in those moral/ethical problems? I hope that makes it more clear. I have friends who will be nurses who I would trust my life and my family's life with and they have no faith in God. They are some of the most caring people I know.[/quote] Okay. I didn't know where you were coming from there but I'm glad we're on the same page. I got a little flustered and had to whip out my soap box. It will get tucked away now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1515018' date='Apr 30 2008, 11:07 AM'][url="http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=744221"]http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=744221[/url] what would you have done if you were employee? should the employer be allowed to fire him? i don't see anything stopping firing. does freedom of religion mean the state can't pass requirements that says you are to proscribe pills or at least refer them? i know a state can require catholic charities, if it wants grant money, to dispense contraceptives, and that is legal. what is there to take to court here? is it right that we can ban all these sins, and could ban contraceptives by his type of reasoning, but we can't require them to be sold etc? my concern is even handed laws.[/quote] The government cannot make a Catholic non-profit dispense contraceptives. That is rediculous. If there is an adverse impact on that company to do something contrary to what it believes then they aren't required by law to do so. There is a significant adverse impact on a Catholic non-profit to provide contraceptives, it goes against Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-I---Love Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1515191' date='Apr 30 2008, 03:44 PM']Even if it was a refill, it was still her prescription. Not transferring it meant that she probably had to return to the doctor. That may have cost her money.[/quote] Unless you have a really crappy doctor, all I would have to do is call up the doctor and ask them to phone in the prescription to another place. Not a big deal. Of course he should have given her the prescription back. [quote name='kujo' post='1515238' date='Apr 30 2008, 04:34 PM']I'm sorry to say that it is well within the rights of the company to fire him. He has the right to religion, he has the right to his moral beliefs, but he [b]does not [/b]have the right to work at a pharmacy. He could've chosen any other profession, one that would not cause him to be involved in any immoral activities. But he chose to work in the field he did, knowing full well that he would be exposed to this sort of thing. Companies have the right to inform their employers of requirements when they are hired. Again, if he knew this was a possibility and went ahead anyway, the bag is in his hands. That being said, I admire his fortitude, but question his motives. Seems fair enough to me. So, we should start making people pay extra money when they engage in activities that are immoral? Sounds like a Church tax to me.[/quote] Why does he not have the right to work at a pharmacy? Because he's a certain religion? That's wrong. I think that is something we call prejudice... [quote name='kujo' post='1515387' date='Apr 30 2008, 07:29 PM']I don't look to the State for moral guidance. And I think anyone who does is severely mistaken. But I respect your views and agree with them, to an extent. I don't think the best way to deal with these tendencies towards sins is to make them illegal; rather, I think we need to evangelize better, preaching the Gospel of Love that our Lord gave to us. It reminds me of the premise of [u]Footloose[/u]--just because they outlawed dancing, doesn't mean that the inclination towards the sin they feared had gone anywhere.[/quote] Yes, but MANY people do look to the state for moral guidance. Many people will do something only if it's legal. If it's illegal they won't. It's a widespread phenomenon. The state MUST provide for its citizens moral guidance. If it's foundation is not credible, is not based upon morals, then it will self-destruct. Btw, while I probably wouldn't, I have no problem with someone taking someones condoms from their grocery bag. It's a work of mercy A catholic who believes that being a pharmacist means they have to compromise their principles is a fool. Have courage! Grow up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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