Indifference

[Guest The3rdbaseman36]

Ok, so here's the deal. Me and a friend have been having a long discussion over the nature of evil. We eventually came to the conclusion that evil cannot exist without good. However, we came to problem, and that is indifference. Neither of us could find the good in indifference, no matter how hard or creatively we thought. We both agree that there must be some good in it, but we just don't see it. I was hoping that someone else out there would know, or have an idea, or something that woulld be able to help us. Thanks a lot.

[CatherineM]

I can name a lot of evil that has come from indifference, but can't think of any good that can come from it.

[rkwright]

[quote name='The3rdbaseman36' post='1514759' date='Apr 29 2008, 11:02 PM']Ok, so here's the deal. Me and a friend have been having a long discussion over the nature of evil. We eventually came to the conclusion that evil cannot exist without good. However, we came to problem, and that is indifference. Neither of us could find the good in indifference, no matter how hard or creatively we thought. We both agree that there must be some good in it, but we just don't see it. I was hoping that someone else out there would know, or have an idea, or something that woulld be able to help us. Thanks a lot.[/quote]

Just to be clear, evil does not 'exist' per se. Evil is merely the absence of good. Something is evil if it is lacking in goodness in someway.

Here is Aquinas's thoughts on the matter (not specific to indifference, but to actions in general). Summa II Q 18 A1
[quote]I answer that, We must speak of good and evil in actions as of good and evil in things: because such as everything is, such is the act that it produces. Now in things, each one has so much good as it has being: since good and being are convertible, as was stated in the I, 5, 1,3. But God alone has the whole plenitude of His Being in a certain unity: whereas every other thing has its proper fulness of being in a certain multiplicity. Wherefore it happens with some things, that they have being in some respect, and yet they are lacking in the fulness of being due to them. Thus the fulness of human being requires a compound of soul and body, having all the powers and instruments of knowledge and movement: wherefore if any man be lacking in any of these, he is lacking in something due to the fulness of his being. So that as much as he has of being, so much has he of goodness: while so far as he is lacking in goodness, and is said to be evil: thus a blind man is possessed of goodness inasmuch as he lives; and of evil, inasmuch as he lacks sight. That, however, which has nothing of being or goodness, could not be said to be either evil or good. But since this same fulness of being is of the very essence of good, if a thing be lacking in its due fulness of being, it is not said to be good simply, but in a certain respect, inasmuch as it is a being; although it can be called a being simply, and a non-being in a certain respect, as was stated in the I, 5, 1, ad 1. We must therefore say that every action has goodness, in so far as it has being; whereas it is lacking in goodness, in so far as it is lacking in something that is due to its fulness of being; and thus it is said to be evil: for instance if it lacks the quantity determined by reason, or its due place, or something of the kind.

Reply to Objection 1. Evil acts in virtue of deficient goodness. For it there were nothing of good there, there would be neither being nor possibility of action. On the other hand if good were not deficient, there would be no evil. Consequently the action done is a deficient good, which is good in a certain respect, but simply evil.[/quote]

[fides quarens intellectum]

Good example of indifference: being indifferent to God's will for your life, abandoning your pride.

[CatherineM]

Whenever I think of indifference, I think first of being indifferent to the suffering of those around us.

[rkwright]

Maybe, and I'm guessing here, the 'goodness' in indifference is the opportunity to do something. The action has potential, and yet you exercise none of that potential. Even your inaction is a deliberate choice? But maybe thats more sins of omission...

I think we need a good definition of exactly what indifference is.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1514815' date='Apr 30 2008, 12:17 AM']Maybe, and I'm guessing here, the 'goodness' in indifference is the opportunity to do something. The action has potential, and yet you exercise none of that potential. Even your inaction is a deliberate choice? But maybe thats more sins of omission...

I think we need a good definition of exactly what indifference is.[/quote]

i'll bite. New American Webster College Dictionary:

1. feeling no interest or anxiety; apathetic.
2. unbiased; impartial
3. not making a difference
4. mediocre; moderate in amount or degree.


So, in my example, i was using the second or third definitions.

[rkwright]

I guess I should ask, is an indifferent action, still an action? If yes, its easy to see both the goodness and evil in an action (see aquinas above).

But I think the problem arises when there is an indifference and thus no action at all. I see something happening and just don't care to do anything about it; it seems as though I have taken no action at all. But maybe my no action really is an action type deal? Like my post above?

[fides quarens intellectum]

annoying wireless. ignore.

Edited April 30, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[fides quarens intellectum]

and the double post.

Edited April 30, 2008 by fides quarens intellectum

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1514823' date='Apr 30 2008, 12:32 AM']But I think the problem arises when there is an indifference and thus no action at all. I see something happening and just don't care to do anything about it; it seems as though I have taken no action at all. But maybe my no action really is an action type deal? Like my post above?[/quote]

Without trying to get too circular, i think that when there is an indifference and no action is taken, there can still be good indifference. Let's see. i still stick to the abandonment to God's will as an example of good indifference - as an indifferent attitude, not necessarily an indifferent action. You may abandon yourself in prayer, and become indifferent to the outcome of your life/events/etc, but after you are done praying, your action or inaction on the matter doesn't negate the indifference you felt during prayer. i don't know. maybe i should go to bed instead.

[picchick]

Do you guys think that there might be some grey?

I think that there could be a grey area: Where do you want to go to eat? I am indifferent. In this case no evil can come from it. This is more of a neutral indifferent. I don't think a person can be indifferent on ethical moral issues where there is no grey area. I think that they can be in the process of deciding a side but that does not mean that they are indifferent.

[CatherineM]

I used to tell my boys that not making a decision is making a decision -- to say no, or to refrain from doing something. Whenever I think of indifference, I think of Mother Theresa seeing the man dying on the train station platform, and everyone was walking by like he wasn't there. In the movie, when she goes to help him, all the people disappear from around her. It was if her focus on the dying man made their indifference invisible. After he passes, she can see everyone again.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='picchick' post='1515307' date='Apr 30 2008, 03:56 PM']Do you guys think that there might be some grey?

I think that there could be a grey area: Where do you want to go to eat? I am indifferent. In this case no evil can come from it. This is more of a neutral indifferent. I don't think a person can be indifferent on ethical moral issues where there is no grey area. I think that they can be in the process of deciding a side but that does not mean that they are indifferent.[/quote]

You could argue your indifference to the choice of food is a good though, since it demonstrates a detachment from the pleasures of this world.

[picchick]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1515327' date='Apr 30 2008, 05:16 PM']You could argue your indifference to the choice of food is a good though, since it demonstrates a detachment from the pleasures of this world.[/quote]


it is more like, I am so hungry I don't care where we eat. Or I like food so much that anywhere we go I'll have a blast.