Us Catholic Leadership Invites Hindu Leader

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1513980' date='Apr 29 2008, 11:35 AM'][b]Aloysius[/b] . . .

Please straighten out your theology.[/quote]

sorry, just had to chuckle at this real quick . Aloy and I certainly have our disagreements, but his theology is usually pretty solid.

Edited May 1, 2008 by goldenchild17

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1514131' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:14 PM']This is not erroneous. What is erroneous is to throw out everyone else's points without offering any evidence to the contrary. Muslims do believe in the same God in so far as they, along with Christians and Jews, worship the God of Abrahman, Issac, and Jacob. Furthermore, these three religions center around many of the same events. They interpret and apply them differently, but the basis of these three is quite similar.[/quote]

Muslims do not worship the same God. You can keep peddling this if it makes you feel good, but it isn't true and I'm not going to stop saying it isn't true.

Do you really think the same God revealed to the Jews and worshipped by Christians is the one who told Mohammed that Christians and Jews are "apes and pigs"? Do you really think this same God revealed through Jesus that marriage is a holy covenant between one man and one woman, but then he told Mohammed that he could have as many wives as he wanted, including a 6 year old? Would the same God of the Christians and the Jews tell Mohammed that the Jews and Christians "got it all wrong and incurred my wrath against them"? Give me a break. You don't know what you're talking about. This is NOT mere "differences in interpretation". This is a totally different religion, with a totally different deity, with a totally different theology. You're uninformed and uneducated on the facts. And you have the audacity to cry foul when your error is pointed out to you.

Go ahead, tell me to be polite. Call me uncharitable. I really don't care. I don't think it's charitable and polite to perpetuate false theology.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1515728' date='May 1 2008, 04:33 AM']sorry, just had to chuckle at this real quick . Aloy and I certainly have our disagreements, but his theology is usually pretty solid.[/quote]

"Jews don't worship the same God as Christians".

Not only not solid, but insulting and heretical.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1515720' date='May 1 2008, 03:00 AM']The Vatican II text quote by the Latin Church's Catechism is ambiguous, because it simply says that Muslims "profess" (i.e., claim) to hold the faith of Abraham and to worship the true God, but what Mohammedans claim to be the case does not follow of necessity.[/quote]


Perfect post. It's what I wanted to say but you're clearly smarter than me.

What religions *claim* to profess is not always the same as what is reflected in reality when you begin to scrutinize the theology and the religious texts.

Catholics have more in common with Buddhism than they do with Islam. Frankly.

False prophet. False deity. False theology. False religion.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1515699' date='May 1 2008, 01:13 AM']Anyone who rejects or does not believe Christ to be God does not believe in God.[/quote]

Well, that certainly is not true in the case of the Jews.

You people need to seriously back up off the Jews. I am getting sick and tired of reading these comments questioning and denying the Jews' faith. God revealed himself to THEM 2,000 years before the Holy Incarnation. Don't forget it!!!

STOP lumping the Jews in with all the other non-Christian religions. The same rules don't apply to Judaism as with other "pagan" religions. Jews are NOT pagans. They are the forerunners of salvation history. Show some respect for our "elder brothers and sisters in the Faith".

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1514935' date='Apr 30 2008, 07:52 AM']First, I didn't "try" to correct you, I did correct you.[/quote]


I think the record now shows that you were wrong from the start. No need to apologize to me, though. I wasn't looking for an apology, just for the theology to be corrected.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1514938' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:04 AM']If you do not comply, your subsequent uncharitable posts will be edited and you will be warned.[/quote]

Don't threaten me. Please don't be mistaken in thinking that I need this forum. I will gladly remove myself before I kow tow to threats from you or anyone else.

No one "insulted" your wife. If you think that then you don't know the meaning of the word "insult". Your wife (and you) don't like being told that you're wrong, so you respond with cries of "insulting", "not polite" and "uncharitable" and "I will edit you". What it comes down to is that she (and you) were WRONG. You have been proven wrong by other posters and by the facts of Judeo-Christian theology. You are riding on your degrees from orthodox universities as if this means you can never, ever, ever be wrong. Sorry, life doesn't work that way. A degree from an orthodox university does not guarantee you an intellectual monopoly in all theological discussions. It certainly does give you a lead in the discussion, but it does not guarantee you right of might.

Stop threatening, making accusations, and using words like "insulting" in a dishonest way. Don't preach virtue to others unless you are going to practice it yourself. Start with humility. And let your wife fight her own battles.

You can edit me, delete me, ban me. If that's what I get for stating what I know is the Truth, then so be it. If that's what I get for not tolerating someone trying to push their erroneous theology on me, so be it.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Justin86]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1515773' date='May 1 2008, 09:53 PM']Your wife (and you) don't like being told that you're wrong, so you respond with cries of "insulting", "not polite" and "uncharitable".[/quote]
Not really. They are debating others in this thread without jumping up and down claiming they're being insulted. It's the tone of your post that makes you uncharitable and is getting you into trouble here.

Have you ever seriously considered what [i]respect[/i] means? I would never, in my adult life, even think about talking to someone the way you do in your posts. It's not the content, it's the person giving it. Fix yourself or I have no doubt that you will be banned. Apotheoun will be just fine, however.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Justin86

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1515753' date='May 1 2008, 01:27 PM']Muslims do not worship the same God. You can keep peddling this if it makes you feel good, but it isn't true and I'm not going to stop saying it isn't true.

Do you really think the same God revealed to the Jews and worshipped by Christians is the one who told Mohammed that Christians and Jews are "apes and pigs"? Do you really think this same God revealed through Jesus that marriage is a holy covenant between one man and one woman, but then he told Mohammed that he could have as many wives as he wanted, including a 6 year old? Would the same God of the Christians and the Jews tell Mohammed that the Jews and Christians "got it all wrong and incurred my wrath against them"? Give me a break. You don't know what you're talking about. This is NOT mere "differences in interpretation". This is a totally different religion, with a totally different deity, with a totally different theology. You're uninformed and uneducated on the facts. And you have the audacity to cry foul when your error is pointed out to you.

Go ahead, tell me to be polite. Call me uncharitable. I really don't care. I don't think it's charitable and polite to perpetuate false theology.[/quote]

Mme Vengier, what you write about Islamic belief here is false. Muhammad never had a six-year-old wife. I presume you're referring to Aisha, whom he married when she was nine but did not live with until she was twelve - which was a normal age for marriage in many countries across the world in the seventh century. Most of his wives were war-widows whom he married as a way of providing protection and financial support to them. Today, less than two per cent of Muslims across the globe have more than one wife, and I have heard several Muslim theologians - including Wahhabi sheikhs, who aren't renowned for their liberal views - say that polygamy was only ever meant to exist in a time of war when men were scarce. The heavily sexualised image of Islam that exists in many imaginations today was not designed or promoted by Muslims.

I am talking to you as a former Muslim who has lived for most of her life in a Muslim-majority country with Muslim family and Muslim friends. You can try to tell me that I am 'uninformed and uneducated on the facts', and I expect that you will - anybody who criticises the theological knowledge of people like Micah, who hold good degrees in theology from orthodox Catholic institutions, certainly won't have any scruples about taking somebody like me to task. This is a problem that you will continue to have for as long as you talk AT people rather than with them. As Jennie pointed out, this isn't indicative of good theology either. Knowledge is nothing without charity. St Paul said it best.

To go back to the original topic, I am not sure whether Hindus are worshipping the same God. I read some Hindu scriptures when I was in Nepal (the [i]Upanishads[/i] and the [i]Bhagavad Gita[/i]) which pre-date the Bible. It is definitely possible to read those texts and come away with a monotheistic worldview. I was especially interested to see that a trinitarian concept features in these texts - Brahma the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer, and Vishnu the Preserver, all at work simultaneously and holding the world in being by their harmonious 'dance'. I can remember reading an essay by C.S. Lewis that talked about how God permitted traces of truth to find its way into pre-Christian religions, which might account for how this imagery - flawed as it is - became a part of Hinduism. There are also tales of Krishna hiding in a stable with cowherds and having to flee from a king who wanted to kill him...

The advent of Christianity puts a totally different complexion on all this, however. Why cling on to seeds of truth when you could shelter under the boughs of the tree? I believe that salvation flows through Jesus, and although His mercy isn't necessarily confined to the Church, this doesn't mean that the Church is irrelevant. Evangelism is crucial, but it's equally crucial to remember what evangelism is. The sharing of the Good News. Not giving the world's non-Christians a hectoring lecture on why they're wrong and doomed to Hell. That kind of behaviour is often based on assumptions and prejudices about other people - no matter how well-intentioned those assumptions might be. When I was in Nepal I found that my students were tired of people thinking that they actually worshipped idols. They don't believe that God resides in statues and they took pains to explain this to me right away, so that I wouldn't make the mistake that some of the other foreign teachers had made and start telling them why idol-worship is wrong. It made me realise that listening is just as valuable as talking where evangelism is concerned. We have to engage with the people themselves, not with what we believe those people to be.

Do Hindus worship the same God as we do? I don't know. I used to pray with my students before the day began, simple intercessory prayer for the work that we would be doing and any worries that they had about the upcoming day. We all found this prayer-time enriching, including me. However, I was a lot more cautious when we went to the temple for festival-days. I didn't mind looking around the temple to see the artwork and so on, but I couldn't bring myself to participate in prayers there. It felt wrong.

Despite my uncertainty, I don't believe that they were worshipping demons. If you were to ask for money or a fast car or something of that nature, I daresay that it would be within Satan's power to answer - he is the prince of this world and part of his cunning is to make us care about nothing except possessions. But I heard several of my students praying to be more patient with their younger siblings or asking for the ability to be more respectful to their teachers. These things involve true goodness. Would it be in Satan's power to grant such prayers? I don't see how it could be.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Apotheuon, I agree with the bulk of your post, though I'd like to see the references to the Church Fathers you say told us that Abraham et al. knew a Triune God (not because I don't believe you, but because I have never heard a thing on this). Islam is indeed a false religion, but as long as they worship "the God of Abraham," then they are directing their worship in the proper direction, just not with the right beliefs about that God. If Jews can worship the same God we worship while having some things right and some things wrong about Him, then so can Muslims. It's only logical. However, Islam is false.

Madame, you are absolutely correct in saying I don't have to apologize to you. As for my wife, she handled herself and you didn't even respond to her (she told me she felt left out ). Your attitude is entirely rude and uncharitable. I agree that it is charitable to correct theological error, but you must do so with charity in your methods as well. Regardless, you are not correcting theological error, you're expressing one theological opinion which may or may not agree with Catholic doctine. The issue at hand is whether or not your arguments do agree with Church teaching. It is not a sufficient argument to say that they do, that you're right and I'm wrong, or to point to the argument of another person who agrees with you with his own theological opinions, which also may or may not be true. As it is, Apotheuon has a degree from the same university as my wife and I. The difference is that his attachment to the Eastern Catholic Rites often allows him to scrutinize Latin theology without feeling particularly troubled by it. You wrote that I have been proven wrong again and again, yet no one has once presented any proof to me that I am wrong; there have been no statements from the Magisterium saying that this is an incorrect understanding of Islam or of the related articles in the CCC, there have been no authoritative texts quoted. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm the only person who has quoted any magisterial document in this entire thread.

Regardless, it is not your theological argument that bothers me so much as it is your attitude. You started by quoted Aloysius and insisting that he was WRONG (you capitalized it, too) without citing any sources, let alone authoritative sources. When he recommended a relevant book, which may well have supported his theology, and was written by His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger, you dismissed his recommendation with a complete lack of charity or respect. Please learn to be charitable. I'm not threatening you with editing. As a matter of fact, I would not edit you in this thread because we don't consider it wise to edit those we've been debating with. However, for your own sake, it would be wise on your part to be polite.

God bless,

Micah

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Unfortunately, I get the feeling Madame Vengier takes her view of Muslims, as well as her theology, from popular conservative media, which has unfortunately often made Muslims out to be something far more intentionally malicious than they are. Popular conservative media often has the tendency to make listeners and watchers quite resistent to anything else (because, of course, anyone who disagrees, even other political and religious conservatives such as my self, is "the enemy"). The trouble is that as much as I agree with the principles behind the arguments of folks like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, they often mix in a lot of sensationalism (ratings, anyone?), for which nothing is better than polarizing your audience.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1515780' date='May 1 2008, 08:04 AM']Mme Vengier, what you write about Islamic belief here is false. Muhammad never had a six-year-old wife. I presume you're referring to Aisha, whom he married when she was nine but did not live with until she was twelve - which was a normal age for marriage in many countries across the world in the seventh century. Most of his wives were war-widows whom he married as a way of providing protection and financial support to them. Today, less than two per cent of Muslims across the globe have more than one wife, and I have heard several Muslim theologians - including Wahhabi sheikhs, who aren't renowned for their liberal views - say that polygamy was only ever meant to exist in a time of war when men were scarce. The heavily sexualised image of Islam that exists in many imaginations today was not designed or promoted by Muslims.

I am talking to you as a former Muslim who has lived for most of her life in a Muslim-majority country with Muslim family and Muslim friends. You can try to tell me that I am 'uninformed and uneducated on the facts', and I expect that you will - anybody who criticises the theological knowledge of people like Micah, who hold good degrees in theology from orthodox Catholic institutions, certainly won't have any scruples about taking somebody like me to task. This is a problem that you will continue to have for as long as you talk AT people rather than with them. As Jennie pointed out, this isn't indicative of good theology either. Knowledge is nothing without charity. St Paul said it best.

To go back to the original topic, I am not sure whether Hindus are worshipping the same God. I read some Hindu scriptures when I was in Nepal (the [i]Upanishads[/i] and the [i]Bhagavad Gita[/i]) which pre-date the Bible. It is definitely possible to read those texts and come away with a monotheistic worldview. I was especially interested to see that a trinitarian concept features in these texts - Brahma the Creator, Shiva the Destroyer, and Vishnu the Preserver, all at work simultaneously and holding the world in being by their harmonious 'dance'. I can remember reading an essay by C.S. Lewis that talked about how God permitted traces of truth to find its way into pre-Christian religions, which might account for how this imagery - flawed as it is - became a part of Hinduism. There are also tales of Krishna hiding in a stable with cowherds and having to flee from a king who wanted to kill him...

The advent of Christianity puts a totally different complexion on all this, however. Why cling on to seeds of truth when you could shelter under the boughs of the tree? I believe that salvation flows through Jesus, and although His mercy isn't necessarily confined to the Church, this doesn't mean that the Church is irrelevant. Evangelism is crucial, but it's equally crucial to remember what evangelism is. The sharing of the Good News. Not giving the world's non-Christians a hectoring lecture on why they're wrong and doomed to Hell. That kind of behaviour is often based on assumptions and prejudices about other people - no matter how well-intentioned those assumptions might be. When I was in Nepal I found that my students were tired of people thinking that they actually worshipped idols. They don't believe that God resides in statues and they took pains to explain this to me right away, so that I wouldn't make the mistake that some of the other foreign teachers had made and start telling them why idol-worship is wrong. It made me realise that listening is just as valuable as talking where evangelism is concerned. We have to engage with the people themselves, not with what we believe those people to be.

Do Hindus worship the same God as we do? I don't know. I used to pray with my students before the day began, simple intercessory prayer for the work that we would be doing and any worries that they had about the upcoming day. We all found this prayer-time enriching, including me. However, I was a lot more cautious when we went to the temple for festival-days. I didn't mind looking around the temple to see the artwork and so on, but I couldn't bring myself to participate in prayers there. It felt wrong.

Despite my uncertainty, I don't believe that they were worshipping demons. If you were to ask for money or a fast car or something of that nature, I daresay that it would be within Satan's power to answer - he is the prince of this world and part of his cunning is to make us care about nothing except possessions. But I heard several of my students praying to be more patient with their younger siblings or asking for the ability to be more respectful to their teachers. These things involve true goodness. Would it be in Satan's power to grant such prayers? I don't see how it could be.[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

Just off the top of my head, St. Athanasius speaks of the patriarchs and prophets experiential knowledge of the Tri-unity of God in his treatise [i]De Synodis[/i]. For a good summary of the Greek patristic tradition on this issue I recommend the [i]Hagioretic Tome[/i] of the Council of Constantinople held in A.D. 1341.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1515804' date='May 1 2008, 09:57 AM']Just off the top of my head, St. Athanasius speaks of the patriarchs and prophets experiential knowledge of the Tri-unity of God in his treatise [i]De Synodis[/i]. For a good summary of the Greek patristic tradition on this issue I recommend the [i]Hagioretic Tome[/i] of the Council of Constantinople held in A.D. 1341.[/quote]
Thanks. I was aware from Scripture of course that Abraham and others had experiences of the Trinity, but I'd never heard that they realized the significance or "knew" the Trinity, just that they had experienced a mystery that we later came to know was the Trinity. I'll look into this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1515794' date='May 1 2008, 07:19 AM']Apotheuon, I agree with the bulk of your post, though I'd like to see the references to the Church Fathers you say [. . .] Islam is indeed a false religion, but as long as they worship "the God of Abraham," then they are directing their worship in the proper direction, just not with the right beliefs about that God. If Jews can worship the same God we worship while having some things right and some things wrong about Him, then so can Muslims. It's only logical. However, Islam is false.

[. . .][/quote]
Right worship (orthodoxy) is only offered by Christians (Catholic and Eastern Orthodox), and not by Muslims, or even the Jews any longer. That said, Islam is utterly false, while Judaism is a Christian heresy, in which the Jews accept the letter of the Old Testament revelation of God, while failing to grasp its true meaning in the Spirit.

It is important that Catholics not fall into theological indifferentism by confusing Rabbinic Judaism with Biblical Judaism, because the former is a corruption of the faith of Abraham, while the latter – especially through the prophets – experienced a living relationship with the Logos of God in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mortify' post='1515688' date='May 1 2008, 01:22 AM']I was basing it on Jesus' statement:
[color="#0000FF"]
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and [b]many[/b] enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a [b]few[/b] find it." Matthew 7: 13-14[/color][/quote]
Yes, but this isn't necessarily a verse referring to all times. I would assume that since the dawn of Christianity, the number grew, though how significantly it grew is unknown.