Madame Vengier Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1514096' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:36 PM']Please watch your charity level.[/quote] And the members of this forum should watch their theology. I'm sorry you're more concerned with "charity" than you are with correct theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1514101' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:39 PM']Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all do worship the same God, since they all worship "the God of Abraham."[/quote] So you admit that your buddy Al was wrong when he said Jews and Christians don't worship the same God. He was never going to admit he was wrong, so thanks for saying it for him. It is funny that you didn't correct him though. You tried to correct me instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1514452' date='Apr 29 2008, 06:31 PM']and considering some of the preternatural events (supposedly) surrounding Muhammad, a demonic element may not be so unlikely.[/quote] I certainly believe this to be true. A careful analysis would prove to a lot of other people that it's likely true, too. Can't explain that to some people, though, who have their minds made up that Islam is a lovely and peaceful religion--they don't want to be inconvenienced by the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514923' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:23 AM']So you admit that your buddy Al was wrong when he said Jews and Christians don't worship the same God. He was never going to admit he was wrong, so thanks for saying it for him. It is funny that you didn't correct him though. You tried to correct me instead.[/quote] First, I didn't "try" to correct you, I did correct you. Second, you're picking on Al over semantics. As I read it, Al was not saying that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same God, but that they don't believe in the same God, in the sense that their view of God is skewed. You see, there is one God, we'll call Him "The Trinity" and Christians worship Him properly because we know Him properly. However, that same God is known to Muslims as "Allah" and to Jews as "YHWH." Now, the idea Muslims hold in their beliefs about "Allah" give him attributes that do not entirely match up with the beliefs Christians have. Therefore, one could say that why they are directing their worship toward the same God, they do not have the same God, so far as their perception of God is different. Personally, I don't think it's the best way to say it, but his point was clearly not that the God known as "Allah" or "YHWH" to Muslims and Jews was intrinsically different from the God known as "The Trinity;" his point was that the perception of them is different, and thus, in their understanding (and not unreasonably so, though we know it not to be the case) they worship different gods. I think Al was making a judgment about their different perceptions, or perceptions of different gods, even though the actual God they are looking at is "The Trinity." So really, this is just an argument of semantics, and you need to stop being rude to Al. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514921' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:20 AM']And the members of this forum should watch their theology. I'm sorry you're more concerned with "charity" than you are with correct theology.[/quote] Excuse me. I know that you're new here, but before you insult my wife again, you might care to know that she and I both have degrees in theology from a very orthodox university. An important part of theology is having charity with those you are debating. If you feel the need to insult others in order to make your point, then you only prove that you don't know theology. My charity is far from perfect, but at least I know that those who truly practice theology allow it to infuse their actions and words with charity. A basic rule of moral theology is that the ends do not justify the means; in other words, you cannot be uncharitable in order to defend even the most important truths. If you truly desire to defend the truth, then your defense must be wedded to charity. Please read the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=71986&hl=Guidelines"]Phorum Guidelines[/url] before posting again. If you do not comply, your subsequent uncharitable posts will be edited and you will be warned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514921' date='Apr 30 2008, 08:20 AM']And the members of this forum should watch their theology. I'm sorry you're more concerned with "charity" than you are with correct theology.[/quote] I'm not more concerned with charity than I am with correct theology. Considering I've dedicated my life to orthodox Theology, I would say that your statement is far from being true. Charity should always be a concern of ours rather it be in our actions or in our words. If I am not mistaken Pope Benedict XVI dedicated an entire encyclical to Charity (Love). Seems the Pope has concern for charity as well, not at the expense of Theology but in union with it. If I remember correctly the Holy Father quotes Augustine as saying, "If you see charity, you see the Trinity." This is what we should strive for every time we discuss Theology. We should do so in a way that shows them the truth. Good luck showing someone the truth of the Catholic faith by disrespecting them. We should not compromise the truth by any means, but we should share the Church's teachings in a way that does not degrade nor demean the one we are speaking with. In the words of St. Francis "Preach the gospel. And if necessary use words." God Bless and Mary Protect, Jennie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted May 1, 2008 Author Share Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='zwergel88' post='1514619' date='Apr 29 2008, 08:54 PM']How could people with good intentions who only want to worship God and live a good live be directed their prayers in an evil direction?[/quote] Well, for one thing intentions are not enough, it's vital to accept truth and worship correctly. It's hard on our modern ears, but the Church is the sole and unique ark of salvation. She possesses the fullness of truth and the only form of worship pleasing to God. Even Christianities which contain elements of the Church, such as the bible for example, are not sufficient in themselves to bring people to salvation. There may be an exception for those who are sincerely ignorant, though this does not mean every person who never heard the Gospel is automatically going to heaven. Such a person would have to believe in God, at least believe in a judgment, and live according to the natural law and do what's right via God's grace. Even though God's desire is for everyone to be saved, and He provides sufficient grace even for the innocent infidel, it appears that the majority of the human population will not make it to heaven and this is due to their own choices. A truly frightful thought, and I pray that I and all of you make it to heaven, and that God may guide all to Him, and that people may respond to His grace. Lord have mercy on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1515626' date='Apr 30 2008, 11:19 PM']it appears that the majority of the human population will not make it to heaven and this is due to their own choices.[/quote] I was following you completely up to this point. While I agree that this is possible, I just don't think I'd feel that comfortable citing statistics on the damned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 Muslims do not give right worship ([i]orthodoxa[/i]) to the true God, nor can the god "revealed" in the Qur'an be identified with the triune God revealed through the mystery of the incarnation. Islam is a false religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1515649' date='May 1 2008, 12:06 AM']Muslims do not give right worship ([i]orthodoxa[/i]) to the true God, nor can the god "revealed" in the Qur'an be identified with the triune God revealed through the mystery of the incarnation. Islam is a false religion.[/quote] Ultimately, it comes down to a lot of semantics: [i]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." -CCC 841[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted May 1, 2008 Author Share Posted May 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Raphael' post='1515646' date='Apr 30 2008, 11:04 PM']I was following you completely up to this point. While I agree that this is possible, I just don't think I'd feel that comfortable citing statistics on the damned...[/quote] I was basing it on Jesus' statement: [color="#0000FF"] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and [b]many[/b] enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a [b]few[/b] find it." Matthew 7: 13-14[/color] Edited May 1, 2008 by mortify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted May 1, 2008 Author Share Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1515676' date='Apr 30 2008, 11:53 PM']Ultimately, it comes down to a lot of semantics: [i]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." -CCC 841[/i][/quote] Just a side note. The first time I read that passage I mistakenly believed Muslims are saved as well (just goes to show how unclear some of the language is in the new Catechism.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1515691' date='May 1 2008, 01:30 AM']Just a side note. The first time I read that passage I mistakenly believed Muslims are saved as well (just goes to show how unclear some of the language is in the new Catechism.)[/quote] The language of the Catechism really isn't unclear, it just can't be taken out of context. The following paragraphs in the CCC make it clear that Islam is not salvific, especially CCC 844. CCC 845 makes extra ecclesiam nulla salus entirely clear with reference to non-Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 the Qur'an states outright that "They surely disbelieve who" believe in the Trinity. And the Christ was only an messenger, not God, thus they reject God because Christ is God. Anyone who rejects or does not believe Christ to be God does not believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Raphael' post='1515676' date='Apr 30 2008, 10:53 PM']Ultimately, it comes down to a lot of semantics: [i]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." -CCC 841[/i][/quote] The Vatican II text quote by the Latin Church's Catechism is ambiguous, because it simply says that Muslims "profess" (i.e., claim) to hold the faith of Abraham and to worship the true God, but what Mohammedans claim to be the case does not follow of necessity. Besides, divine faith is not an abstract belief in a generic "god"; instead, as the Church Fathers taught, the faith of Abraham and the other Patriarchs, and of Moses and the Prophets, was triune, for they were privy to the mystery of God from the very beginning. Moreover, the infallibility of the Church's Magisterium is limited to what has been divinely revealed, and – whether you want to admit it or not – who Muslims worship does not fall within the purview of the Magisterium's authority. Finally, as far as the plan of salvation is concerned, it includes all of mankind. Nevertheless, Islam is a false religion, which teaches that "god" creates both good and evil, that he predestines men to both heaven and hell, while simultaneously denying the tri-hypostatic nature of the Godhead; and so clearly it does not affirm what has been revealed in the Old and New Testaments. Consequently, I refuse to subscribe to the heresy of theological indifferentism by saying that Muslims give proper worship to the true God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Edited May 1, 2008 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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