CatherineM Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 I imagine that no matter which god people pray to our Father probably is the one receiving the messages. Our pastor is from India, I'm going to have to ask him what his opinion is about the monotheism in Hindu being from western influence. I will admit to knowing very little about the faith. I thought when I first moved here that the Sikhs were part of Hindu, and was quickly informed they were different. They are kind of yin and yang. The Sikhs here actually get to carry these large ceremonial daggers to school with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 They direct their prayers towards the correct God, but they believe in a different one in the case of Muslims. In the case of Jews, there are two religions: Old Testament Judaism, which is part of our history, and Talmudic Judaism which is not the same thing, but rather the creation of Rabbis at the Council of Jamnia which in effect established a competing religion with Christianity. Catholic theology considers the Catholic Church to be the true continuation of the Jewish religion whereas talmudic Judaism is not... however, they maintain a recognition for the one true God whom they know only partially... the only false additions they have made to their belief is the emphatic stated denial that He could be a Trinity. whereas Muslims, on the other hand, have added many false beliefs about God to the point where though they direct their worship towards the same God, the god which they believe in and formulate in their theology is an entirely different thing than the God which Christians believe in fully and Jews believe in partially. so as one point of clarification: when I say "nor do Jews", I meant more in the sense that the God they believe in is an incomplete version. all the while I made a distinction between what they believe in and who they direct their worship towards; the former is different than as but the latter is the same. I'd like to see you find another phatmasser who agrees with your statement that I am always preaching about how everyone else is wrong... I have received not just a few PMs of praise for how fairly I tend to treat most topics (I don't let it get my head big haha)... of course, this particular topic my position is not the most popular one around these parts, but I believe I've earned the respect of most people who disagree with my position who have taken the time to discuss these things with me. I always give every side a fair go... sorry if my posts are too long for you, sometimes they spiral out of control. the simplistic statement "they worship the same God" is accurate in that they direct worship towards the same God. honestly, though, it's gotten to the point where it seems like many Catholics would say that if someone said "Hail, oh brilliant spaghetti monster, the One and Only God" they would say "see, this person believes in the same God as us because they believe in a one and only God" no. if they direct their worship towards "the one and only God" I am willing to say with St. Paul that they worship what they do not know, they direct their worship towards the same God. But I will not say they believe in the same God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1514027' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:33 PM']I imagine that no matter which god people pray to our Father probably is the one receiving the messages. Our pastor is from India, I'm going to have to ask him what his opinion is about the monotheism in Hindu being from western influence. I will admit to knowing very little about the faith. I thought when I first moved here that the Sikhs were part of Hindu, and was quickly informed they were different. They are kind of yin and yang. The Sikhs here actually get to carry these large ceremonial daggers to school with them.[/quote] monotheism did evolve in hinduism over a long period of time, and it may be slightly due to Western influences though I tend to believe it probably would have developed independently in the evolution of their religion. Of course, there are still many poor hindus who still believe polytheistically. I believe monotheism many began to become a popular interpretation of the many gods that had evolved around localities around the start of the first millenium but don't quote me on that. I have read the theory that all religions likely began as localistic monotheisms "ie Apollo is the god of this town in Greece, Krishna is the god of this town in India; and the people of those towns only acknowledge that one god" and polytheism evolves as an amalgamation of all those gods into one large cosmic system to unite...and then the real test of uniting peoples in a real communion comes by trying to unite them all under one ultimate God. Hinduism is kind of like the slacker in that department in that it didn't really do any work to iron out the different gods but evolved into saying "well, all these different gods are different manifestations of the one true God" and that monotheistic belief has grown in popularity over time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 Madame, you'd probably be interested in then Cardinal Ratzinger's book, Truth and Tolerance, which really goes into a great analogy between pre-Christian Judaism and all the continuing non-Christian religions in the world today... the difference of course being that pre-Christian Judaism had direct Divine revelation but there are still nice theological parallels. great read, great insights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1514045' date='Apr 29 2008, 12:50 PM']so as one point of clarification: when I say "nor do Jews", I meant more in the sense that the God they believe in is an incomplete version.[/quote] You were wrong, period. Jews worship THE SAME GOD as we do. This "incomplete version" (a ridiculous choice of words) that you speak of is only that they do not accept the Trinity. That is a Christian revelation. But they worship the same God now as they did at the inception of their covenant with that same God. Don't try to re-word it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1514054' date='Apr 29 2008, 12:59 PM']Madame, you'd probably be interested in then Cardinal Ratzinger's book,[/quote] Unlike you, I don't have to sit around reading mounds and mounds of theological treatises in order to understand my Faith. I read a fair amount and then I use this thing called "my brain". Apparently, all your reading does is confuse you to the point that you spout incorrect and erroneous theology at last 50% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='zwergel88' post='1514021' date='Apr 29 2008, 12:20 PM']I agree that it is ridiculous to not acknowledge the fact that Muslims. Christians, and Jews worship the same God. This is pretty self-evident. But in the sense, that there is only one God, doesn't everyone in the world pray to the same God? It's not as if their are different gods out their that one may pray to.[/quote] Muslims, no. Jews and Christians, YES. This is basic salvation history 101. You all should know it. If you don't, get educated. Whatever you have to do, stop spouting erroneous theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514090' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:32 PM']Unlike you, I don't have to sit around reading mounds and mounds of theological treatises in order to understand my Faith. I read a fair amount and then I use this thing called "my brain". Apparently, all your reading does is confuse you to the point that you spout incorrect and erroneous theology at last 50% of the time.[/quote] Please watch your charity level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514090' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:32 PM']Unlike you, I don't have to sit around reading mounds and mounds of theological treatises in order to understand my Faith. I read a fair amount and then I use this thing called "my brain". Apparently, all your reading does is confuse you to the point that you spout incorrect and erroneous theology at last 50% of the time.[/quote] Hi. Please be polite. This was entirely unnecessary. I know Al pretty well, and I assure you he wasn't just trying to show off the "mounds and mounds of theological treatises" he's read, he just thought you might find the book interesting. God bless, Raphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514094' date='Apr 29 2008, 02:35 PM']Muslims, no. Jews and Christians, YES. This is basic salvation history 101. You all should know it. If you don't, get educated. Whatever you have to do, stop spouting erroneous theology.[/quote] Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all do worship the same God, since they all worship "the God of Abraham." The distinction is in their understanding of that God. The Christian understanding is as complete as God has revealed Himself, the Jewish understanding is incomplete, and the Muslim understanding is very heavily skewed (based mostly, in my opinion, on what they could see of God without the help of Revelation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1514094' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:35 PM']Muslims, no. Jews and Christians, YES. This is basic salvation history 101. You all should know it. If you don't, get educated. Whatever you have to do, stop spouting erroneous theology.[/quote] This is not erroneous. What is erroneous is to throw out everyone else's points without offering any evidence to the contrary. Muslims do believe in the same God in so far as they, along with Christians and Jews, worship the God of Abrahman, Issac, and Jacob. Furthermore, these three religions center around many of the same events. They interpret and apply them differently, but the basis of these three is quite similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemary's Goddaughter Posted April 29, 2008 Share Posted April 29, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1514045' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:50 PM']I'd like to see you find another phatmasser who agrees with your statement that I am always preaching about how everyone else is wrong... I have received not just a few PMs of praise for how fairly I tend to treat most topics (I don't let it get my head big haha)... of course, this particular topic my position is not the most popular one around these parts, but I believe I've earned the respect of most people who disagree with my position who have taken the time to discuss these things with me. I always give every side a fair go... sorry if my posts are too long for you, sometimes they spiral out of control.[/quote] Here, have another bit 'o praise from another random PMer. Long posts are awesome. Peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted April 29, 2008 Author Share Posted April 29, 2008 Even if their prayers are directed to God, it's hard to say what value they have if they don't go through the Son, especially if they are aware of the Christian religion. Secondly, and this may be a bit controversial, but it's possible members of false religions are worshiping demons. In Justin Martyr's dialouge with a pagan emperor, he said the deities worshiped by pagans are nothing more than fallen spirits. I don't know much about other religions other than Islam, and considering some of the preternatural events (supposedly) surrounding Muhammad, a demonic element may not be so unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zwergel88 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 How could people with good intentions who only want to worship God and live a good live be directed their prayers in an evil direction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1514101' date='Apr 29 2008, 01:39 PM']Actually, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all do worship the same God, since they all worship "the God of Abraham." The distinction is in their understanding of that God. The Christian understanding is as complete as God has revealed Himself, the Jewish understanding is incomplete, and the Muslim understanding is very heavily skewed (based mostly, in my opinion, on what they could see of God without the help of Revelation).[/quote] The Muslim "understanding" is based on the so-called "revelations" to Mohamed, which he claimed he was forced to give by a supernatural visitor, later identified as the Angel Gabriel. It seems Mohamed was likely either insane or demonically oppressed. Islam is not some benign religion based on natural reason or whatever, but has from its founding principles a blatant rejection of Christ as our Lord and Savior, and of key Christian dogmas. Islam claims Mohamed to be the greatest prophet, and the fulfillment of Jewish and Christian Scriptures. Islam claims Christians and Jews to be guilty of rejecting their own Scriptures, and of deliberately changing them to remove those parts which prophecy Mohamed as the Great Prophet. Islam claims Christ was not the Son of God, but only a prophet, who prophesied Mohamed's coming, and that He was never crucified. Islam was a religion set up in opposition to the Christian Faith from the start, blatantly denies fundamental Christian dogma, and is in no way compatible with the Christian Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts