Holy Meal Vs. Holy Meal

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1513491' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:01 PM']but JIMSH... don't you think there's be people in the early church who understood properly? why isn't that recorded if so?

are we resting on teh presumption that those documents might not exist now but did at one time?
and from such reputable members.. was all of the known church deceived?
are you saying God would let that deceived apparence occur to us in our modern day looking back?[/quote]

I have no idea.

As I said, I am not unltimately knowledgeable of all the mysteries of God, because I am not God.

All I know really is that I am not really moved one way or the other. When God doesn't want me to go any further in certain topics, he gives me a warning, and I listen to it. I listen to that pit in my stomach and stop. Here, I don't know, and I don't feel in the spirit it has to be one understanding or another. If I did, I would be adamant about it, like I am with you on gene manipulation.

Catholics might be right, Protestant reformed churches might be right, who knows? Only God ultimately knows.

[picchick]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1513444' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:19 PM']btw, I worked for 9 hours today, and some of your comments about me not responding because I was wimpering somewhere is really shallow, and I don't appreciate it. FGS, I have to earn a living. I can't just post on Phatmass any time I want. I have to feed myself, cloth myself, pay my rent, and entertain myself, and I need money to do that.[/quote]

No you don't.... Phatmass is the most important of all


My post responds to most of what you said....

[picchick]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1513459' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:31 PM']But was what Jesus talking about the Eucharist, or was it the fact his body would be used to pay the price of the forgiveness of sins, and that if you believe the words he spoke, than you have already partook of the Body. I don't know about you, but when I ask God for forgiveness, I see myself putting a nail in the Wrist of Jesus Christ, and through his feet.

I partake of the cruxificition, and I partake of the ressurection after God forgives me of my sins, for again, I have mortified the works of the flesh.

So, the eating of the Eucharist really might mean, it profits nothing, but Jesus death on the cross brings his spirit which quickens us to him.

The thing is, I don't understand all mysteries, and I could be absolutely wrong on a lot of things. No man can truly know all the mysteries of God ever. He is unphatomable, his wisdom knows no depths, and his knowledge reaches to the highest heavens!

Mine does not. I don't really feel one pull or the other in this debate, but I like seeing people's views, and sharing my views.[/quote]


This is what you do not understand and it connects the Eucharist to the Cross: The Eucharist and the crucifixion is the same. Consecration is the sacrifice of the Cross in an unbloody manner each and every time it is celebrated. They are one in the same. Yes, it is hard to picture it but that is what it is.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1513504' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:12 PM']No you don't.... Phatmass is the most important of all
My post responds to most of what you said....[/quote]

LOL!

Oh, that was a good one. Thanks for a great laugh just before bed. You make my day Meg.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1513508' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:15 PM']This is what you do not understand and it connects the Eucharist to the Cross: The Eucharist and the crucifixion is the same. Consecration is the sacrifice of the Cross in an unbloody manner each and every time it is celebrated. They are one in the same. Yes, it is hard to picture it but that is what it is.[/quote]

I'm going to check that out first. It would be interesting to see that point of view. As I have said, I'm not sure one way or the other on this topic, so I am pretty neutral towards it.

If God wanted me to take a stand here, I would feel it, and because he hasn't put it in my heart, I will check into this a little farther.

[picchick]

You know, faith is not based off of feelings. I feel (no pun intended) that you base a lot of your beliefs off of feelings....

[dairygirl4u2c]

just to clarify for her... i'm sure she meant, it's not based solely off feelings. sorta like PJII said... faith and reason, two wings on the same bird.

i remember being sick one time when i was in the process of leaving the church. but i didn't base it on that, but rather the arguments i had.

Edited April 29, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[picchick]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1513527' date='Apr 28 2008, 11:24 PM']just to clarify for her... i'm sure she meant, it's not based solely off feelings. sorta like PJII said... faith and reason, two wings on the same bird.

i remember being sick one time when i was in the process of leaving the church. but i didn't base it on that, but rather the arguments i had.[/quote]


Right...thank you.

A nun once told me that you shouldn't base God off the warm and fuzzy. Sometimes you aren't going to feel the warm and fuzzy because God is trying to get you to walk on your own. God is kinda like the dad who walks with their kid while they are learning to walk. You know how they hold up their kids to help them walk. Then God is going to go a little bit in front of you and encourage you to take some steps on your own. This is where the reasoning part comes in because you know that faith is there and so is God even though the warm fuzzy feeling is not there.

Thanks, Dairygirl.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1513512' date='Apr 29 2008, 04:20 AM']I'm going to check that out first. It would be interesting to see that point of view. As I have said, I'm not sure one way or the other on this topic, so I am pretty neutral towards it.

If God wanted me to take a stand here, I would feel it, and because he hasn't put it in my heart, I will check into this a little farther.[/quote]
You might want to look at [url="http://webpages.marshall.edu/~trimbol3/4thcup4.htm"]this link[/url]. It's a lecture by Scott Hahn discussing how the Passover, the Eucharist, and the Crucifixion are intimately linked.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1513598' date='Apr 28 2008, 10:56 PM']Right...thank you.

A nun once told me that you shouldn't base God off the warm and fuzzy. Sometimes you aren't going to feel the warm and fuzzy because God is trying to get you to walk on your own. God is kinda like the dad who walks with their kid while they are learning to walk. You know how they hold up their kids to help them walk. Then God is going to go a little bit in front of you and encourage you to take some steps on your own. This is where the reasoning part comes in because you know that faith is there and so is God even though the warm fuzzy feeling is not there.

Thanks, Dairygirl.[/quote]

I think both of you misunderstand me.

When I say feeling, it's not an emotion, but rather either a compulsion to do something, as if that door is opened by God and nothing will shut it, or its a hinderance, that the door is locked by God and shouldn't be opened. In this matter, I am not feeling one or the other, so I should prayerfully consider this, and check it out, because I reason, God really isn't putting a preference in me. It might be a step of faith that I need to take, who knows. As I said, I am not God and I don't understand all the mysteries of God, so this might be one that I might need to take. It might not be.

Jesus might have been alluding to the resurrection during those passages, as the passages before were about his resurrection. Is the bread he was talking about his death and resurrection would pay for sins, or do we actually need to eat the Eurachrist? I don't know. I would lean towards the the former because I have been through spiritual battles where God was the only reason I am alive today. If I wasn't already saved, why would God prevent my death when I stood for his Son and the kingdom? If I was doing so and it wasn't of God, it would mean God doesn't take Iniquity very seriously, and yet it says those who practice it will be thrown into outer darkness. I don't know. I will check out the books someone mention, and go on from there.

On the Faith and Reason, that is how I spiritually discern things. I compare what someone says with scripture and then step out in faith after prayer either pro or against something, like Gene Manipulation. It is easy to see that doing that is playing God, and therefore men is taking authority over something God doesn't want them having authority over, and as a result it is sin, because we're placing our intellects over God, which is expressly forbiddened by God when he said, you will put no other god before me.

On a side note, when God has a door closed that I shouldn't open, I get a pit in my stomach. That isn't all warm and fuzzy. . .

Edited April 29, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1513459' date='Apr 28 2008, 11:31 PM']But was what Jesus talking about the Eucharist, or was it the fact his body would be used to pay the price of the forgiveness of sins, and that if you believe the words he spoke, than you have already partook of the Body. I don't know about you, but when I ask God for forgiveness, I see myself putting a nail in the Wrist of Jesus Christ, and through his feet.[/quote]

Well, we have Jesus' words, "eat my flesh... drink my blood." The question is, are they literal or metaphorical. To answer that, we look at what he says next: "the flesh profiteth nothing... my words are spirit and life." So, he isn't saying that literal flesh profits nothing, or else there would be no value in the Incarnation. Rather, the very words "eat my flesh... drink my blood" are of the spirit and life-giving. It is more than metaphor; this is how we fully partake and share in Christ himself.

Remember, the Jews completed the Passover sacrifice by eating the sacrifice lamb. If we do not eat our sacrifical Lamb, we do not complete the Passover sacrifice. This is how the New Covenant spiritually obeys and fulfills the Mosiac Law.

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1513459' date='Apr 28 2008, 11:31 PM']The thing is, I don't understand all mysteries, and I could be absolutely wrong on a lot of things. No man can truly know all the mysteries of God ever. He is unphatomable, his wisdom knows no depths, and his knowledge reaches to the highest heavens![/quote]

Of course, the sacraments are mysteries (which is how Eastern Christians refer to them) outside of our comprehension. I can hardly fathom how Jesus' death and resurrection can wash clean billions of sinners or how bread and wine change into Christ, but it does, and I have both faith and reason to support my belief.

You're right that nobody can know the mysteries of God, but also know that God is not the Father of confusion. Rather, he brings certainty because the Truth is solid ground on which we can stand. He taught the disciples many things that were not included in Scripture, more important assuring to Peter and all of us that "the gates of hell will not prevail" against his Church. So don't allow yourself to fall into what I call Christian relativism, where one believes Catholics, Calvinists, Methodists, and whoever else have some things right and other things wrong, as if Christ would leave his followers out at sea in the storm without a compass.

There is a compass for us to follow. It isn't that we pretend to know everything about God, but simply that we know what is definitively revealed from God, which only leads to greater awe at his glory.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1513883' date='Apr 29 2008, 12:03 PM']Is the bread he was talking about his death and resurrection would pay for sins, or do we actually need to eat the Eurachrist? I don't know. I would lean towards the the former because I have been through spiritual battles where God was the only reason I am alive today. If I wasn't already saved, why would God prevent my death when I stood for his Son and the kingdom? If I was doing so and it wasn't of God, it would mean God doesn't take Iniquity very seriously, and yet it says those who practice it will be thrown into outer darkness. I don't know. I will check out the books someone mention, and go on from there.[/quote]

Yes, we believe that you are in effect rejecting the words of Christ by not partaking of the Eucharist. However, that doesn't mean you have no relationship with God. You've received the grace to believe and trust in Christ this far. God cannot hold you accountable for denying the Eucharist if you were never taught about it. And whether you come to accept it or not, still only God knows your heart. It is difficult for any Christian, even when they approach Catholicism with full openness and goodwill, to see with the eyes of faith what the Catholic Church is and teaches.

That seems to be where you are now: being sure of your faith in Christ and open to knowing him more, wherever that may lead. Jesus is a gracious and merciful shepherd, which is nowhere made more evident than in Holy Communion because Jesus longs to be with us even more than we long to be with him. He isn't going to forsake you, long as you trust in his grace.

As for Catholicism, as you read and learn about it, keep in mind that this is all fundamentally about experiencing God. You can read about Catholic beliefs in books all day and night, but if you never experience it -- especially in the Mass, but also in community with Catholic believers -- you're only getting a small taste of what it is to be Catholic. God seduces us into the bosom of his Church and we find ourselves falling madly in love with him. When we approach the sacraments like a lover to our beloved, we are beginning to experience what Christ meant by having life and having it to the full.

Edited April 29, 2008 by LouisvilleFan