Holy Meal Vs. Holy Meal

[picchick]

This is where we'll discuss the Holy Communion debate that is happening in the other thread.


JIMSH:

You cannot bless your own food and it be Jesus's Body and Blood soul and divinity. If this were the case we would have a horrible sacrilage on our hands with all the food we throw out.

Jesus took BREAD blessed it and broke it and gave to His disciples.
Jesus took WINE blessed it and gave it to His disciples.

We cannot take a meal we have at home for it to become Jesus.
Furthermore, it is more than a blessing by a priest. It is a consecration in which the bread and wine TURNS into the Body and Blood. Only the priest can do so because he is dedicated to that. Others on PM will have to clarify that more.

Of course we can pray and bless our meals and think of the crucifixion and how Jesus died for us. That is great. I pray before meals all the time. It is only right and proper that I thank God for giving me the opportunity to taste the goodness He gives me. However, that food nurishes my body and does nothing for my soul. The everlasting meal at Holy Communion nurishes my soul. It is the only way my soul survives.

I think of the sacraments in an earthly way. Just as my body needs nutrients from food, my soul needs nutrients from Holy Communion. Just as I need to shower so that people do not avoid me and so that I am free of infection and disease, my soul needs to be cleansed with confession.

If anyone can expound on this please do.

[Deb]

[b][i]MOVED FROM OTHER THREAD.

QUOTE(JesusIsMySuperHero @ Apr 27 2008, 02:18 PM) [/i][/b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1511593"][b][i][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/style_images/ip.boardpr/post_snapback.gif[/img][/i][/b][/url][b][i]If it says it in scripture, it has to be true.

But dairy, what is stopping any saint from blessing their food and acknowledge Jesus death on the cross during any meal. If I drink some juice and thank God for the blood Jesus shed for me, does that make in null and void because I am not certified Catholic and a priest? If I eat some food and thank God for Jesus Broken body on the cross, does that mean nothing because someone didn't give me a certificate!

People have had a power structure in church for such a long time that they no longer realize the rights we have as children of God! I have the God-given right to bless my own meal as holy communion because I am part of the royal priesthood. I have holy communion during every meal, because I think of the blessings of God for sending his son for my life!

Now, who wants to debate me on that? Why can I not have holy communion during every meal I eat by blessing it myself and thinking of the death on the cross? Why does a priest have to bless the wine and the bread? Why can't I?[/i][/b]

DEB:

Very interesting. I have never before heard of a single saint who actually thought themselves to be one. Even the greatest, humbled themselves before God. Even those who were eaten alive, stoned to death, burned alive or became great Popes would not have referred to themselves as a Saint. Yet, you do. There is not a Saint I can think of that would use your terms to try to get anyone to recognize the reality of God. Fact, lots of them brought people to Jesus through the use of miracles.

Okay, that is tripping me out but, I will debate you on your statement. You can bless your food at every meal. I do, most Catholics I know do that. You aren't turning it into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ however. That is solely an act that is performed by Jesus Christ himself through an ordained Priest of God. When the apostles set out to spread the word and establish the Church of Christ, they had priests. You can bless all you want but, you cannot enact transsubstantiation. Jesu is the only one who can do that. He does it through those he has called to represent HIM as the HIGH PRIEST in this world. If Christ had called you to be one of them, you would be a priest in the Catholic Church right now.

I suggest you read the writings of St. Justin Martyr. His accounts of early christianity is not doubted. He converted from being a pagan to a Christian around the year 130. I will give you a bit from his writings to show you that the Eucharist isn't something that you just create on your own and that the celebration of it has been since the beginning of the Catholic Church as the apostles were told to institute it by the Holy Spirit, who is Christ. The President of the Brethern would have been the Presbyter (priest) for the area in which he had been made in charge of. These historical writings (undisputed) are outlining the same mass I went to today and that I will go to tomorrow and until the day I die. The mass in the Catholic Church.

[i]But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayers[/color][/i][/url][i] in common for ourselves and for the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]baptized[/color][/i][/url][i] [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]truth[/color][/i][/url][i], by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]salvation[/color][/i][/url][i]. Having ended the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayers[/color][/i][/url][i], we salute one another with a [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08663a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]kiss[/color][/i][/url][i]. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]glory[/color][/i][/url][i] to the Father of the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]universe[/color][/i][/url][i], through the name of the Son and of the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Holy Ghost[/color][/i][/url][i], and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayers[/color][/i][/url][i] and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Amen[/color][/i][/url][i]. This word [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Amen[/color][/i][/url][i] answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm"][i][color="#000066"]deacons[/color][/i][/url][i] give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.[/i]

[i]And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]true[/color][/i][/url][i], and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]sins[/color][/i][/url][i], and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Jesus Christ[/color][/i][/url][i] our Saviour, having been made flesh by the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Word of God[/color][/i][/url][i], had both flesh and blood for our [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]salvation[/color][/i][/url][i], so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayer[/color][/i][/url][i] of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm"][i][color="#000066"]apostles[/color][/i][/url][i], in the memoirs composed by them, which are called [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Gospels[/color][/i][/url][i], have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk022.htm#19"][color="#000066"]Luke 22:19[/color][/url] this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]wicked[/color][/i][/url][i] devils have imitated in the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10662a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]mysteries[/color][/i][/url][i] of [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Mithras[/color][/i][/url][i], commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water [/i]are placed with certain incantations in the mystic [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13064b.htm"][color="#000066"]rites[/color][/url] of one who is being initiated, you either [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm"][color="#000066"]know[/color][/url] or can learn.

The highlighting and underlining are not mine but were on the only site I could find with these writings published. My scanner isn't working or I would have copied mine. Annoying but, readable.

Ya know, it also kind of really brings together that whole organized religion thing too. Regardless of who has done what over the past 2000 years. The Catholic Church is still doing what was given to them by Christ through the Apostles.

Edited April 27, 2008 by Deb

[picchick]

Thanks Deb

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think it gives the catholis here a lot of credibility... that htey are always willing to jump into a debate when an issue arises. they're not out picking fights, but when one is started, they jump at the chance.

and then hte protestants usually whimper away at the debate they themselves created...

[Deb]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1511727' date='Apr 27 2008, 03:56 PM']i think it gives the catholis here a lot of credibility... that htey are always willing to jump into a debate when an issue arises. they're not out picking fights, but when one is started, they jump at the chance.

and then hte protestants usually whimper away at the debate they themselves created...[/quote]



One thing a lot of people don't know is that even though there are many Catholics who remain Catholic because they were brought up that way and may not know a lot about their faith, there are many who do know about their faith and because of that, they want so badly to share it with others. It is rich and mystical and beautiful and draws one so close to others of the faith.
Protestants do have us beat with teaching our children to memorize scripture but, they are just repeating what they themselves have been taught scripture means without researching the validity of it.
We now see so many Protestant theologians and ministers that after years of preaching and teaching their religion are converting to Catholicism. Once they really look in depth at the history of Christianity and its teachings, the are brought to the truth of the Catholic Church.
I am a newbie in Catholicism, I spent the first sixteen years of my life in the Catholic faith and never learned what I have in the last one year of my life. Of course, the Holy Spirit gave me the ability to really know the truth at this time.

Edited April 27, 2008 by Deb

[CatherineM]

Well, we did have to invent Apologetics.

CCC1411: "Only validly ordained priests can preside at the Eucharist and consecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and Blood of the Lord"

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1511712' date='Apr 27 2008, 02:38 PM'][b][i]MOVED FROM OTHER THREAD.

QUOTE(JesusIsMySuperHero @ Apr 27 2008, 02:18 PM) [/i][/b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=findpost&pid=1511593"][b][i][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/style_images/ip.boardpr/post_snapback.gif[/img][/i][/b][/url][b][i]If it says it in scripture, it has to be true.

But dairy, what is stopping any saint from blessing their food and acknowledge Jesus death on the cross during any meal. If I drink some juice and thank God for the blood Jesus shed for me, does that make in null and void because I am not certified Catholic and a priest? If I eat some food and thank God for Jesus Broken body on the cross, does that mean nothing because someone didn't give me a certificate!

People have had a power structure in church for such a long time that they no longer realize the rights we have as children of God! I have the God-given right to bless my own meal as holy communion because I am part of the royal priesthood. I have holy communion during every meal, because I think of the blessings of God for sending his son for my life!

Now, who wants to debate me on that? Why can I not have holy communion during every meal I eat by blessing it myself and thinking of the death on the cross? Why does a priest have to bless the wine and the bread? Why can't I?[/i][/b]

DEB:

Very interesting. I have never before heard of a single saint who actually thought themselves to be one. Even the greatest, humbled themselves before God. Even those who were eaten alive, stoned to death, burned alive or became great Popes would not have referred to themselves as a Saint. Yet, you do. There is not a Saint I can think of that would use your terms to try to get anyone to recognize the reality of God. Fact, lots of them brought people to Jesus through the use of miracles.

Okay, that is tripping me out but, I will debate you on your statement. You can bless your food at every meal. I do, most Catholics I know do that. You aren't turning it into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ however. That is solely an act that is performed by Jesus Christ himself through an ordained Priest of God. When the apostles set out to spread the word and establish the Church of Christ, they had priests. You can bless all you want but, you cannot enact transsubstantiation. Jesu is the only one who can do that. He does it through those he has called to represent HIM as the HIGH PRIEST in this world. If Christ had called you to be one of them, you would be a priest in the Catholic Church right now.

I suggest you read the writings of St. Justin Martyr. His accounts of early christianity is not doubted. He converted from being a pagan to a Christian around the year 130. I will give you a bit from his writings to show you that the Eucharist isn't something that you just create on your own and that the celebration of it has been since the beginning of the Catholic Church as the apostles were told to institute it by the Holy Spirit, who is Christ. The President of the Brethern would have been the Presbyter (priest) for the area in which he had been made in charge of. These historical writings (undisputed) are outlining the same mass I went to today and that I will go to tomorrow and until the day I die. The mass in the Catholic Church.

[i]But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayers[/color][/i][/url][i] in common for ourselves and for the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]baptized[/color][/i][/url][i] [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]truth[/color][/i][/url][i], by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]salvation[/color][/i][/url][i]. Having ended the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayers[/color][/i][/url][i], we salute one another with a [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08663a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]kiss[/color][/i][/url][i]. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]glory[/color][/i][/url][i] to the Father of the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15183a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]universe[/color][/i][/url][i], through the name of the Son and of the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Holy Ghost[/color][/i][/url][i], and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayers[/color][/i][/url][i] and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Amen[/color][/i][/url][i]. This word [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Amen[/color][/i][/url][i] answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04647c.htm"][i][color="#000066"]deacons[/color][/i][/url][i] give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.[/i]

[i]And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]true[/color][/i][/url][i], and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]sins[/color][/i][/url][i], and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Jesus Christ[/color][/i][/url][i] our Saviour, having been made flesh by the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Word of God[/color][/i][/url][i], had both flesh and blood for our [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]salvation[/color][/i][/url][i], so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]prayer[/color][/i][/url][i] of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01626c.htm"][i][color="#000066"]apostles[/color][/i][/url][i], in the memoirs composed by them, which are called [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Gospels[/color][/i][/url][i], have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk022.htm#19"][color="#000066"]Luke 22:19[/color][/url] this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]wicked[/color][/i][/url][i] devils have imitated in the [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10662a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]mysteries[/color][/i][/url][i] of [/i][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm"][i][color="#000066"]Mithras[/color][/i][/url][i], commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water [/i]are placed with certain incantations in the mystic [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13064b.htm"][color="#000066"]rites[/color][/url] of one who is being initiated, you either [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm"][color="#000066"]know[/color][/url] or can learn.

The highlighting and underlining are not mine but were on the only site I could find with these writings published. My scanner isn't working or I would have copied mine. Annoying but, readable.

Ya know, it also kind of really brings together that whole organized religion thing too. Regardless of who has done what over the past 2000 years. The Catholic Church is still doing what was given to them by Christ through the Apostles.[/quote]

I don't use the word saint as you use it.

All the word saint means to me is one who acknowledges God's soverignity and accepts Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. Everybody on this message board who believes in God's soverignity and accepts Jesus Christ is a saint in my books.

Now on the notes from the book, I still ask, other than what the Cathechism says, which I don't accept its authority, does it have to be a priest?

Edited April 27, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[Adrestia]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1511813' date='Apr 27 2008, 04:13 PM']Now on the notes from the book, I still ask, other than what the Cathechism says, which I don't accept its authority, does it have to be a priest?[/quote]Yes.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1511704' date='Apr 27 2008, 02:34 PM']This is where we'll discuss the Holy Communion debate that is happening in the other thread.
JIMSH:

You cannot bless your own food and it be Jesus's Body and Blood soul and divinity. If this were the case we would have a horrible sacrilage on our hands with all the food we throw out.

Jesus took BREAD blessed it and broke it and gave to His disciples.
Jesus took WINE blessed it and gave it to His disciples.

We cannot take a meal we have at home for it to become Jesus.
Furthermore, it is more than a blessing by a priest. It is a consecration in which the bread and wine TURNS into the Body and Blood. Only the priest can do so because he is dedicated to that. Others on PM will have to clarify that more.

Of course we can pray and bless our meals and think of the crucifixion and how Jesus died for us. That is great. I pray before meals all the time. It is only right and proper that I thank God for giving me the opportunity to taste the goodness He gives me. However, that food nurishes my body and does nothing for my soul. The everlasting meal at Holy Communion nurishes my soul. It is the only way my soul survives.

I think of the sacraments in an earthly way. Just as my body needs nutrients from food, my soul needs nutrients from Holy Communion. Just as I need to shower so that people do not avoid me and so that I am free of infection and disease, my soul needs to be cleansed with confession.

If anyone can expound on this please do.[/quote]

Now, I am going to ask this question, and I want everybody to really think about this.

If it has to be a believer, there was the huge sex scandal. Before that, these pedophiles were priests?

When the pronounced the blessing to turn the Eucrist into the blood and body of Jesus, Did God honour their blessing? If not, did it become the blood and body of Jesus because the people at the church had faith it was turned into the body and blood of Jesus despite the fact the men who were doing the blessing were unrepentant sinners who had no right to be a leader of anything.

If it were turned into the blood and body of Jesus then because of people's faith, then how is what I am doing any thing different?

[Adrestia]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1511824' date='Apr 27 2008, 04:23 PM']Now, I am going to ask this question, and I want everybody to really think about this.

If it has to be a believer, there was the huge sex scandal. Before that, these pedophiles were priests?

When the pronounced the blessing to turn the Eucrist into the blood and body of Jesus, Did God honour their blessing? If not, did it become the blood and body of Jesus because the people at the church had faith it was turned into the body and blood of Jesus despite the fact the men who were doing the blessing were unrepentant sinners who had no right to be a leader of anything.

If it were turned into the blood and body of Jesus then because of people's faith, then how is what I am doing any thing different?[/quote]Transubstantiation is a very big topic. Right now I'd do a better job explaining calculus to an algebra student. I'll keep your question in prayer and wait for the Holy Spirit to give me the right words. I hope someone else will be able to answer your question more quickly.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1511824' date='Apr 27 2008, 03:23 PM']Now, I am going to ask this question, and I want everybody to really think about this.

If it has to be a believer, there was the huge sex scandal. Before that, these pedophiles were priests?

When the pronounced the blessing to turn the Eucrist into the blood and body of Jesus, Did God honour their blessing? If not, did it become the blood and body of Jesus because the people at the church had faith it was turned into the body and blood of Jesus despite the fact the men who were doing the blessing were unrepentant sinners who had no right to be a leader of anything.

If it were turned into the blood and body of Jesus then because of people's faith, then how is what I am doing any thing different?[/quote]
Your question was answered by the Church more than 1600 years ago during the Donatist controversy in North Africa.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1511824' date='Apr 27 2008, 10:23 PM']Now, I am going to ask this question, and I want everybody to really think about this.

If it has to be a believer, there was the huge sex scandal. Before that, these pedophiles were priests?

When the pronounced the blessing to turn the Eucrist into the blood and body of Jesus, Did God honour their blessing? If not, did it become the blood and body of Jesus because the people at the church had faith it was turned into the body and blood of Jesus despite the fact the men who were doing the blessing were unrepentant sinners who had no right to be a leader of anything.

If it were turned into the blood and body of Jesus then because of people's faith, then how is what I am doing any thing different?[/quote]
Unfortunately not all priests have led holy lives. However, that does not negate their role in administering the Sacraments, including the Eucharist. If the priest uses valid matter (unleavened bread & wine, and a priest), and the proper form (the prayer of Consecration), then God is faithful and acts through the priest to administer that Sacrament, and the bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It is not dependent on the faith of those receiving, or even on the faith of the priest, though I'd hope that all would have that faith. Conversely, no matter how much I believe it to be the Body & Blood of Christ, if it is not proper matter & form, it isn't the Body and Blood of Christ.

[CatherineM]

St. Clement is listed as the fourth Bishop of Rome, St. Peter’s third successor. His first Epistle to the Church in Corinth is dated about the year A.D. 96. The Church in Corinth had ejected its leaders and installed new ones. This was obviously an attack on the hierarchy, and St. Clement made it clear from his writing, that his position with the Church in Rome had authority over the Church in Corinth. (Louth pgs. 19-20)
St. Clement uses the analogy of the church like a military organization in order to explain to the Church in Corinth why they couldn’t arbitrarily remove their presbyters. “Let us, then, brethren, do soldier’s duty in downright earnest under the banner of His glorious commands. Let us observe those who are soldiering under our commanders, and see how punctually, how willingly, how submissively they execute the commands! Not all are prefects, or tribunes, or centurions, or lieutenants, and so on; but each in his own rank, executes the order of the emperor and the commanders. The great can not exist without the small, nor can the small without the great. A certain organic unity binds all parts, and therein lies the advantage.” (The Epistle to the Corinthians, Section 37)
In Section 44 he goes on to say, “it will be no small sin for us if we oust men who have irreproachably and piously offered the sacrifices proper to the episcopate.” St. Clement made it clear that he felt it his duty to instruct them in their schism, that it would give him the “keenest pleasure” if they would be obedient to his wishes. He included a prayer that the Lord should “direct their counsels in accord with what is good and pleasing in Thy sight, so that they may piously exercise in peace and gentleness the authority Thou hast granted them, and thus experience Thy graciousness.” (Section 62) This made it clear that he placed the authority of the church as coming from the Lord.

St. Ignatius the second bishop of Antioch. He wrote 7 epistles around the year 110 A.D. while en route to Rome to be thrown to the lions. His letter to the Ephesians testified to the central role of the bishop in the church, and recognized the authority of the Church of Rome because of its catholic, ecclesiastical supremacy. He makes several references to his support of their local bishop, “Hence it is proper for you to act in agreement with the mind of the bishop; and this you do. Certain it is that your presbytery, which is a credit to its name, is a credit to God; for it harmonizes with the bishop as completely as the strings with a harp….one should look upon the bishop as upon the Lord Himself….I say, to show obedience with undivided mind to the bishop and the presbytery, and to break the same Bread, which is the medicine of immortality, the antidote against death, and everlasting life in Jesus Christ.”

Both Clement and Ignatius where avid proponents of a strong church hierarchy, and their writings predate the compilation of the canon of the bible and the CCC which you seem to take issue with. These documents were so well respected in the early church that some early church fathers including Clement of Alexandria wanted them included in the Canon of the New Testament.

Christ was forced to leave his perfect church in the hands of imperfect men. There were many fights in the early church about whether sacraments performed by schismatic priests/bishops were valid when they returned to communion. They decided that they were, so for instance, if someone was Baptized by a schismatic bishop, but the baptism was done in the manner prescribed by Jesus, it was valid. It goes the same for the Eucharist. It doesn't matter how big a sinner the priest is, and they are all sinners just as we all are, even the non-pedophile ones that are by far the majority, the Eucharist is valid because his ordination is valid. Until you have a valid ordination, you do not have the authority nor the power to change anything into the true Body and Blood of Christ.

[Deb]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1511813' date='Apr 27 2008, 05:13 PM']I don't use the word saint as you use it.

All the word saint means to me is one who acknowledges God's soverignity and accepts Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour. Everybody on this message board who believes in God's soverignity and accepts Jesus Christ is a saint in my books.

Now on the notes from the book, I still ask, other than what the Cathechism says, which I don't accept its authority, does it have to be a priest?[/quote]

Of course you don't use the word saint as anyone else in the entire universe does. Kind of hard to have a debate unless we kind of start with the same groundrules, like common meaning of words. I doubt if Christ would refer to everyone on these boards as a saint. I know I am not one.

See, you skipped over the entire passage from those writings because you say that is what the Catechism says. That is not from the catechism. It is not from the bible. It is not from the Catholic Church. This is a historical document from a man who lived at that time before there was even a bible. He ended up being a Saint. He discussed the Gospels, the good news that was proclaimed by the very men who were the disciples and apostles of Christ, that he sent out to bring all to him.

So, you don't want to believe or trust anything that hints of Catholic church. Well, there are intact documents out there, one by a man who was a spy for Rome. He spied on the "gatherings" of these christians and described exactly what is also written above by St. Justin. He was a pagan. He had no idea even what they were doing but, he described it to a T, including the Eucharistic celebration. This was around the year 70 a.d.

On your other question regarding Priests who sin and the Eucharist. If the priest has the intent and completes the required things for transubstantiation, Jesus Christ will make it his body and blood. He would not withhold such a life saving grace from his children because the Priest has fallen to sin. Priests are human. Priests sin and repent all the time, just like the saints did.

Now, do you want to debate or just evade the information that gets put out to you? Can you dispute that Christ gave his teachings to his apostles and disciples to create his church in the manner in which it is celebrated today by Catholics? If you can't. Debate over. Stop weaseling around without actually responding with some type of fact rather than, oh, I don't believe that. You can't show why you believe anything.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Deb' post='1511902' date='Apr 27 2008, 05:38 PM']Of course you don't use the word saint as anyone else in the entire universe does. Kind of hard to have a debate unless we kind of start with the same groundrules, like common meaning of words.[/quote]

yeah... I anticipated this would be an issue... like explaining calculus to algebra students.

JIMSH: If you actually want to understand what the Church teaches it would probably be a good idea to start with the basics.