God's Will

[picchick]

Here is my question:
If the Catholic Church is the true Church, which I believe it is, then is it God's Will that everyone belong to it?

And if this is true then is God's Will not revealed to those people to help them become Catholic?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1511363' date='Apr 27 2008, 09:13 AM']Here is my question:
If the Catholic Church is the true Church, which I believe it is, then is it God's Will that everyone belong to it?

And if this is true then is God's Will not revealed to those people to help them become Catholic?[/quote]

Interesting questions.

The only thing I know is God's will is that no one to perish, but for all to come to repentance. I have never read God saying, you must belong to a religion. I have read him saying, repent, be baptized and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

I don't think of the church as something other than the believers, who come to teach each other what they are learning from God. Everybody is really on an equal playing field in my point of view. All are equally accountable for what they are teaching. Some of the more experience saints might point out errors in ones understanding, but the student can also be the teacher, because God might show someone who is learning about God through a Bible study something that the teacher doesn't know.

So what I see is less Here's the Pope who is thought infallable, therefore unaccountable because what he says must be of God, and then the Bishops, and then the priests, and more about a community of believers sharing what they are learning with each other, with more seasoned saints, who are just as accountable as the community, guiding the thoughts.

Currently, I haven't seen a religion that functions like that yet. I see most churches playing favourites, the people who give more money get better ministries at the church, and other things. So right now I do not see any church really as a community because not everybody is sharing, nobody is able to ask questions of a preacher, because he is 'infallable', ect, ect, ect. That doesn't seem like the structure God would want in place.

Even Moses, one of the greatest men of God, didn't tell everybody how to act, and how to behave, and spoon feed everybody. Fathers were told by God to do that with their children. Fathers shared with his children and his wife the things he was learning of God.

When disputes came around in regards to things that were happening with the children of Israel, then Moses would help the disputing factions how to resolve that case through the laws and statues that God had given the Israelites.

And the fact for over 200 years, there was nobody who was an overall ruler in Israel once they took the Promised Lands, except judges who would guide people as to how to live for God, without telling them how to behave and what to do, I don't think God is a God of over organization, but one of stable community.

The general idea I get of what a Godly community would really be is something towards the Amish. They may be technologically backwards, but they have stable communities that have leaders who are accountable, and everybody is pretty much equal. Now if we can include the technological perks of what we have, and create the same type of community based lifestyle they have, I think it would be a step in the right direction.

Human beings need guidance, not leadership that is not accountable.

[CatherineM]

There's also a difference between God's intermediate will, and his ultimate will. We can't know how his kingdom will unfold, but I suspect that it is going to be one incredible ride.

[Adrestia]

Here's what I think today (my ideas are subject to change over time with added maturity, continuing prayer & study, and hopefully greater receptiveness to God's grace):

The fullness of truth exists entirely within the Catholic Church. It is God's will that I am a member of the Church. As a member of the Church, my primary duty is to love others as God loves me. This includes (1) serving as "priest, prophet, and king" within the capacity given to me by the Holy Spirit, (2) being God's hands and feet in service to my community, (3) evangelization under guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I do not propose to know what God wants for anyone else... half the time I'm not exactly sure what He wants for me. In order for me to be a good witness to Christ's Church I have to be a good member of Christ's Church. No amount to Truth from my mouth will sway a non-believer if I am a severely miserable, depressed, grumpy, uncharitable malcontent. As I strive in hope to become a better Catholic, I become a better evangelist.

[picchick]

JIMSH: I disagree with a lot of what you say but I will not go into it here. I am not sure if it pertains to the topic at hand. It seems that you have many ideas going in your post that needs to be addressed but I cannot do so at this time

I have been mulling over this idea in my head and I want to get other's views on it.

Jesus says, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you." So if we do not drink His Blood and eat His Flesh then we are dead. If we are dead we cannot get to heaven. God wants us to be in heaven because that is why He made us.

God made us to konw, love and serve Him in this world and to be happy with him in heaven forever.

If these things are so, then the only way to get to heaven is to recieve Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament or Holy Communion. However, those who do not (those of other faiths) do not recieve Holy Communion. So by the statements above, they would not go to heaven. But if God made us to be with Him, would it not be His Will for everyone to become Catholic?

*And I am in no way judging anyone with this post. I do not know how God judges as to who goes to heaven or not. I am just curious*

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1511429' date='Apr 27 2008, 11:12 AM']I have been mulling over this idea in my head and I want to get other's views on it.

Jesus says, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you." So if we do not drink His Blood and eat His Flesh then we are dead. If we are dead we cannot get to heaven. God wants us to be in heaven because that is why He made us.

God made us to konw, love and serve Him in this world and to be happy with him in heaven forever.

If these things are so, then the only way to get to heaven is to recieve Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament or Holy Communion. However, those who do not (those of other faiths) do not recieve Holy Communion. So by the statements above, they would not go to heaven. But if God made us to be with Him, would it not be His Will for everyone to become Catholic?

*And I am in no way judging anyone with this post. I do not know how God judges as to who goes to heaven or not. I am just curious*[/quote]

I have always been to churches that practice communion. I still practice communion every time I eat. I thank God for the blood that was shed for me in calvary when I drink. I also thank God for the broken body on the cross when I eat.

I practice a lot of what the Catholic Church practices, but I don't belong to it. I believe in a lot of what the Catholic Church believes, because it is common sense. I don't belong to the Catholic Church because some things don't make sense, like an Infalliable Pope who is always right in doctrine and morals. . .

I would hold him more accountable than that. All leadership needs to be held accountable, because if leadership is not accountable, who keeps them in line!

On the matter of communion, why does it have to be a priest who blesses the wine and the bread? Can't any saint do it on their own, and thank God for Jesus death on the cross during any meal?

Edited April 27, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[dairygirl4u2c]

if i were to look at the CC as the truth, then i would argue it's the fullness of truth.
some people will not attain that in this life. but they will be held accountable to what they know. if they reject what they know to be true, which is a tricky situation, then they will be held accountable to that.

i can't discern for the life of me whether it's true or not. i have evidence and gut feeling that could go either way.

you mention the "eat my flesh" bit, which is the strongest point that draws me to the CC. i've considered going orthodox, cause papal authority is the biggest issue i have. i've considered becoming a liberal catholic simply believing the church is in error regarding its claims of authoirty.
the centrality of peter, and the bishop of rome.... has very solid foundation in the bible and history. i'm more orthodox on that issue though in how i perceive it right now. i like hte idea of orthodoxy a lot as it's historical and everything. but i concede the CC might be true.

i put my "eat my flesh" issue on hiatus, never really taking a plunge either way. there's certain degrees of doubt that the histrocity of it is as clear as it's said, so i hold to that for the moment. unlike the papal claim though, i concede the "eat my flesh" argument has a ton more certainty and validity to it than the papal claim.... i'm just hanging by a thread as to the doubts i have.

i'm a former catholic, so as a former catholic, i'm prone to have issues like i describe above. i know what it's like, and it has a certain nostaglia to it. etc.

who knows if i will ever become a catholic. it'd probably take a lot more, like it did for thomas, if the CC is true. who knows if i ever become orthodox. i looked at orthodoxy as kinda funny, as do catholics, when i was a catholic... so it's a weird feeling considering to become orthodox, but i wouldn't rule it out.

i figure right now, i put all of my trust in Jesus, and that's all that really matters as far as salvation, unless i know to do more. like i said, if the CC is true, it's only the fullness of truth, not the bare essentials.

Edited April 27, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dominicansoul]

There is only One God,
There is only One Way,
and He established only One Church to minister this Truth to all the earth...

I truly believe that everyone is given the grace to find this TRUTH. But not many people respond to it. "Many are called but few are chosen." "They have ears, but do not hear, they have eyes but do not see."

God is our leader, the Pope is His representative on earth. The Pope is the one whom Jesus appointed to be his Ambassador, His Vicar for His Church. The Pope from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI has always been infallible by action of the Holy Spirit, in terms of Faith and Morals. BY THE ACTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT is the ONE who makes the infallibilty possible. Not the Pope himself. This has been true for the last 2,000 years. It has only been recently pronounced as dogma. That's because the Church is very slow and careful in pronouncing these dogmas. After centuries of discernment and seeking God's will, does Holy Mother Church declare such dogmas. IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD, you see, not something we just made up. God has given us our beliefs. We cannot look at God and say, "this is too incredible and we won't accept." The Holy Spirit has always guided the Catholic Church. Our Church can never be wrong in terms of faith and morals because of this.

I cannot just make up my own "church" and believe that I am somehow in communion with God! Especially when God has established the Church just for that purpose!

For anyone to say they have never experienced communion in the Catholic Church, then their hearts and minds weren't in the right place! For when I receive Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, I know I am receiving HIM, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY. HIS SACRED HEART COMES INTO MY BODY AND GOES TO MY OWN WRETCHED HEART AND MAKES IT NEW. Jesus says so in Scripture that if you don't eat His Flesh nor drink His blood, you have no life in you. Only a Catholic priest has been given this power from God to make the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

You can't receive communion from eating "fruit loops" or whatever else you make yourself in a kitchen at home. That isn't the Holy Communion we Catholics talk about. We're talking about eating Jesus' very own Flesh and Blood!

I truly believe from reading the Gospel of St. John that Jesus does wish us all to be Catholic, because that is the Church he was speaking of when he prayed to His Father, "May they all be one." One Church, One priestly people, one flock, one family.

Edited April 27, 2008 by dominicansoul

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1511573' date='Apr 27 2008, 01:09 PM']if i were to look at the CC as the truth, then i would argue it's the fullness of truth.
some people will not attain that in this life. but they will be held accountable to what they know. if they reject what they know to be true, which is a tricky situation, then they will be held accountable to that.

i can't discern for the life of me whether it's true or not. i have evidence and gut feeling that could go either way.

you mention the "eat my flesh" bit, which is the strongest point that draws me to the CC. i've considered going orthodox, cause papal authority is the biggest issue i have. i've considered becoming a liberal catholic simply believing the church is in error regarding its claims of authoirty.
the centrality of peter, and the bishop of rome.... has very solid foundation in the bible and history. i'm more orthodox on that issue though in how i perceive it right now. i like hte idea of orthodoxy a lot as it's historical and everything. but i concede the CC might be true.

i put my "eat my flesh" issue on hiatus, never really taking a plunge either way. there's certain degrees of doubt that the histrocity of it is as clear as it's said, so i hold to that for the moment. unlike the papal claim though, i concede the "eat my flesh" argument has a ton more certainty and validity to it than the papal claim.... i'm just hanging by a thread as to the doubts i have.

i'm a former catholic, so as a former catholic, i'm prone to have issues like i describe above. i know what it's like, and it has a certain nostaglia to it. etc.

who knows if i will ever become a catholic. it'd probably take a lot more, like it did for thomas, if the CC is true. who knows if i ever become orthodox. i looked at orthodoxy as kinda funny, as do catholics, when i was a catholic... so it's a weird feeling considering to become orthodox, but i wouldn't rule it out.

i figure right now, i put all of my trust in Jesus, and that's all that really matters as far as salvation, unless i know to do more. like i said, if the CC is true, it's only the fullness of truth, not the bare essentials.[/quote]

If it says it in scripture, it has to be true.

But dairy, what is stopping any saint from blessing their food and acknowledge Jesus death on the cross during any meal. If I drink some juice and thank God for the blood Jesus shed for me, does that make in null and void because I am not certified Catholic and a priest? If I eat some food and thank God for Jesus Broken body on the cross, does that mean nothing because someone didn't give me a certificate!

People have had a power structure in church for such a long time that they no longer realize the rights we have as children of God! I have the God-given right to bless my own meal as holy communion because I am part of the royal priesthood. I have holy communion during every meal, because I think of the blessings of God for sending his son for my life!

Now, who wants to debate me on that? Why can I not have holy communion during every meal I eat by blessing it myself and thinking of the death on the cross? Why does a priest have to bless the wine and the bread? Why can't I?

[dairygirl4u2c]

the whole of the CC argument, is that palapal claims are true, and that's that's the case menas all they teach is true and goes to gether. you can say "papal claims are not true' and then dissect the teaching. but from their perspective, ideally, it goes all toghether.

so.. you bring up an important point.
i always wondered if the "eat my flesh" thing was true... could anyone do it? why would it have to be through a priest or ofifical church?

the superficial problem with that argument, is that it's just odd that a normal person would want to do that.

the only substantial problem with that.... is that i'd think the church is one. the only churches that believe it, are churches who are more about being one than the "spiritual oneness" of protestantism. so... they have merit i'd think to look at the rest of what they believe... if they are a few of those who believe in the teaching "eat my flesh".

if you believe in communion more generally... then sure, protestant communion by anyone makes more sense. there's still unity issues, but it does make more sense. and there's a ton of scriputral and historical issues if that's what you bleive.

Edited April 27, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1511579' date='Apr 27 2008, 01:11 PM']God is our leader, the Pope is His representative on earth. The Pope is the one whom Jesus appointed to be his Ambassador, His Vicar for His Church. The Pope from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI has always been infallible by action of the Holy Spirit, in terms of Faith and Morals. BY THE ACTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT is the ONE who makes the infallibilty possible. Not the Pope himself. This has been true for the last 2,000 years. It has only been recently pronounced as dogma. That's because the Church is very slow and careful in pronouncing these dogmas. After centuries of discernment and seeking God's will, does Holy Mother Church declare such dogmas. IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD, you see, not something we just made up. God has given us our beliefs. We cannot look at God and say, "this is too incredible and we won't accept." The Holy Spirit has always guided the Catholic Church. Our Church can never be wrong in terms of faith and morals because of this.[/quote]

How convenient? So, they have always been right. I haven't always been right, and I will admit it when I am wrong, I take accountability very seriously, and I have an accountability partner on this board actually. If I go over the line, they will tell me. Leadership needs accountability, because any human being, in fact all human beings, are probably deceived in one area or another concerning God's word.

When I think of leadership, I want example. I want someone to be an example to me, to teach me the ways of God better, because words are great and fine, but actions are better. What authority did the Apostles really have that other saints didn't? None. Why were the Apostles leaders, because they wanted to be just like Jesus. Hey, I can be just like them, by desiring to be just like Jesus! How many times did Jesus ask his disciples who they thought he was? Many times. It was a test of their faith, but it was maybe something else. As a servant, Jesus wanted to be held accountable to the ones closet to him, so he asked questions, who do you think I am?

If Jesus wanted to be held accountable, than the Popes should want to be held accountable too! Are they better than Jesus?

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1511579' date='Apr 27 2008, 01:11 PM']I cannot just make up my own "church" and believe that I am somehow in communion with God! Especially when God has established the Church just for that purpose![/quote]

Jesus has already created the church, I only want to belong to the church.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1511579' date='Apr 27 2008, 01:11 PM']For anyone to say they have never experienced communion in the Catholic Church, then their hearts and minds weren't in the right place! For when I receive Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, I know I am receiving HIM, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY. HIS SACRED HEART COMES INTO MY BODY AND GOES TO MY OWN WRETCHED HEART AND MAKES IT NEW. Jesus says so in Scripture that if you don't eat His Flesh nor drink His blood, you have no life in you. Only a Catholic priest has been given this power from God to make the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

I have holy communion as well.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1511579' date='Apr 27 2008, 01:11 PM']You can't receive communion from eating "fruit loops" or whatever else you make yourself in a kitchen at home. That isn't the Holy Communion we Catholics talk about. We're talking about eating Jesus' very own Flesh and Blood![/quote]

Well, well, well, are you offended by what I said. I have communion during every meal because I take Christ's death on the cross seriously.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1511579' date='Apr 27 2008, 01:11 PM']I truly believe from reading the Gospel of St. John that Jesus does wish us all to be Catholic, because that is the Church he was speaking of when he prayed to His Father, "May they all be one." One Church, One priestly people, one flock, one family.[/quote]

Yes, I would wish there was one place where all of God's people could be one, but it is not a place or an organization. When something becomes organized, then it can be infiltrated. Should I go to a church, of any denomination, is there a chance children may be abused, spiritually, sexually, physically? Yes. Why would I risk that, when I know in my home there will be no chance for that?

[dairygirl4u2c]

ideally, i'd think.. the church is to be a physical unity.

that we deny orhthdoxy and the CC means either that physical unity is not what God intends.... or he intends physical unity by something other than those orgnaizations.

i'm talking about more than protestant phyusical unity, but more encompassing.

if the church is to be a truly physical unity beyond hte fleeting unity of protestant churches, the CC has an upperhand. i don't think that could be denied. it's simply a questions of whether that fully physicial uinty is what God intends.

[Deb]

Moved response to the Holy Meal vs Holy Meal thread.

Edited April 27, 2008 by Deb

[picchick]

Ok I made another thread to discuss the blessing of meals....

As far as the papacy never being wrong....it has and will continue to be EXCEPT WHEN THE POPE SPEAKS IN REGARDS TO FAITH AND MORALS.

Take the scandal for instance. We hold the Church, its leaders, its priests, its bishops, its Pope accountable. There are bishops, priests, and lay who are shirking their responsibility. The Pope is accountable to this and has taken responsibility. Is this not why he came here? I do think that the people put too many priests on pedestals without questioning things but at the same time, they deserve the respect as a human being and as the one who can give me Jesus and grant me absolution. No one else can do this. We need to hold them more accountable and I believe that through this scandal people are. However, this does not change the fact that the CC is not only a Church but a faith. I think, JIMSH, you seem to miss this. At least in your posts it seems that way.

I would like to stick to my topic. It is really of interest to me.

Thanks,
Meg

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, for more technical backing for the validity of how i remain outside the CC, even by the CC standards...

lutem gentium says taht the fullness of truth "subsists in" the CC. meaning other churches etc can have truth, but they don't ahve it all.

also, as to those who don't reject what they know.... the cathechism and recent popes have said you're only accountable to what you know to be true. "those, knowing the catholic church is true but refuses to remain to be in it", or something like that.

so for me, i at least take solace, that if the CC is true, it's not necessarily condemning me for being outside of it.

honestly, when i consider what the ordox think, i'm always wondering if this is in line with the CC. i couldn't really be a full fledged orthodox if i continued in that mindset. right now, i have to determine whether that mindset is accurate or not, or just imbred.

Edited April 27, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c