Brother Adam Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Another topic I wanted to share. I've begun to understand some why some Baptists and others may be mislead to think that Catholics and Lutherans are not saved. http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima...ic/28/2464.html? I went looking threw the first Bible that I read cover-to-cover when I was in my teens. Going over the passages I had highlighted, I remember how God moved my spirit to draw closer to Him. I recall now how my decision to leave the Lutheran faith and become a Baptist happened in a flurry of pressure and emotion. Looking back though, I don't regret it. I constantly recall Baptists in the church that I was regularly visiting asking "Have you prayed to accept Christ?" And the answer always came back "I have always accepted Christ". Growing up first Catholic, then Lutheran when my mother married and we went to my stepfathers church, I had always had a strong faith and love of my Savior. There was never a time when I didn't accept Him that I could remember. Faith was always a deep part of my church life. For many Catholics, Lutherans, and several other denominations faith in Christ is a family affair, a covenant relationship moreso than is seen in less liturgical churches. The service is focused more on an ever growing relationship with Christ than to have alter calls each Sunday. This will often leave members of these churches tripped up when a Baptist or Reformed Christian asks them "When did you accept Christ as your Savior"? They aren't used to the alter call type questions Baptists ask, so they might say "well, never", but indeed may have a very strong faith in Christ. Here is one passage that I highlighted: "But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than any human authority. The God of our ancestors raised up Jesus, whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree" Acts 5:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Interesting, Brother Adam. I was asked the same question when I started going to the Christian Union at university, and then firmly given the impression I was not a Christian because I had not had 'an altar call experience', even though I was baptised in the Anglican church when I was 14 - old enough to know and understand what I was doing! I cannot ever recall not knowing or understanding about the existance of God, even as a very small child....however my baptism was not accepted as a valid "altar call" by the Christians in the CU. I think I gave in to emotional pressure to respond to an altar call and I don't think in retrospect it made me any more or less a Christian as result, though it did make me a more obnoxious person who alienated a number of family members and friends in my zeal to evangelize them without having any care about where they might be in their individual walk with God..... I am so thankful that our God is a God of love, mercy and grace and that His Holy Spirit works through us in spite of our (in)human behaviour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisjohn04 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I get this question all the time, because I'm the only member of my family that has joined THE CHURCH. My younger brother is baptist and always asks me why we do the things we do, like going to confession calling a priest Father and so on. I usually can show him a bible verse that clears it up, but when I can't I remind him that St.Paul tells us to hold tight to the tradtions of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Bro, you bring up a good point. I've been asked before when I "accepted Christ." As a cradle Catholic, I was brought up accepting Christ. I never had a specific day where I was baptized or said the sinners prayer or whatever other method evangelicals use to define when they "chose Christ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennC Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I was waiting for Samantha to get out of the pool one day and was talking to a young Pastor, he learned I was Catholic and asked if I had received "Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour" ?? this morning and yesterday and the day before, this was when I was able to attend morning Mass each day. I don't get how much more personal than that it can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Things are altar calls, the thing about 'accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour' and accepting Jesus into your heart, while good in themselves, are more recent developments within the protestant tradition. They developed as part of the way some protestants evagelize. This is important to note because to equate Christianity with the typical evangelical summary of what the Gospel is and to condemn Christian groups that do not externally seem to match this idea, is basically to say that "true Christianity" did not exist for century after century and that true Christianity is an outgrowth of popular protestant evangelism. Honestly, I like many things about the protestant emphasis on "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour". This is part of the Mass afterall. Participation in the Mass should foster this personal relationship with Jesus. The climax being receiving Him in the Eucharist. This goes beyond, and should include, asking Jesus into your heart. I think a possible problem with the typical protestant approach might be it's link with their soteriology. The idea of salvation as a once and for all event. You ask Jesus to be your personal Lord and Saviour and then you are saved. Whereas for Catholics justification is connected in an inseperable way with the process of sanctification. We accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour at every Mass when we say the Creed and pray the Mass, this is at the heart of the Mass in fact. But truly growing in that personal relationship is a lifelong process and different people are in different places. Some might not have much of a prayer life and the place of their relationship with Christ might be on the sidelines in their life. But that doesn't mean they aren't Christian or aren't saved. It does mean they are not living the Christian life in the way the Church teaches and have growing to do. What do you think of this Brother Adam? The idea that the popular protestant attitude toward "accepting Jesus as your..." is connected with the idea of "once saved always saved" or that salvation takes place in a definitive moment when the person formally "confesses with their lips" and accepts Christ? Thanks Brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 24, 2004 Author Share Posted February 24, 2004 What do you think of this Brother Adam? The idea that the popular protestant attitude toward "accepting Jesus as your..." is connected with the idea of "once saved always saved" or that salvation takes place in a definitive moment when the person formally "confesses with their lips" and accepts Christ? Your right, the only logical conclusion of an alter call is the "OSAS". If you reject that theory, chaos will likely result. As one of the most unusual Baptists you will ever meet, I accept that a person can come into a relationship with Christ both ways. Personally, I prefer a liturgical church, but that is probably due to the way i was raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Your right, the only logical conclusion of an alter call is the "OSAS". If you reject that theory, chaos will likely result. As one of the most unusual Baptists you will ever meet, I accept that a person can come into a relationship with Christ both ways. Personally, I prefer a liturgical church, but that is probably due to the way i was raised. Thank you brother! I hold the same position as you. I believe people can come to a relationship with Christ both ways. I know I criticize protestant theology at times (it's a debate forum afterall) but I don't doubt the authenticity of protestant people's faith and relationship with Jesus. I think altar call type moments, or those moments where we really make a big choice to accept Christ as King of our lives and hearts, are a normal part of conversion. I just don't think it's once and for all, as you know, I believe that a person can rebel and loose the state of grace. And I think these kind of moments can happen a lot in a person's life. Sometimes a person can be caught up in the world or sin and get a nice kick in the pantaloons from the Holy Spirit and recommit one's life to the Lord. I imagine protestants agree with this, but they would just explain falling away differently or something. God bless you Brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 24, 2004 Author Share Posted February 24, 2004 Protestants who believe in OSAS call this "backsliding". If you backslide too much, it is likely that you were never saved in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 and the thing about that is, how is one sure they are saved, if those who backslide enough that they were never saved in the first place believed they were saved just as much as anyone who has this assurance of salvation? any protestant would vehemently deny that they could ever loose their salvation, yet some later in life turned out not to have been saved back when they said they couldn't loose their salvation. this is the biggest whole i've found in the backsliding theory, cuz the backsliding should logically let in the idea that it is possible that you're not really saved even after you've accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, cuz so too did those who backslid do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 If you backslide too much it is likely that you were never saved in the first place. That is an argument against OSAS isn't it? If you've gone through the process of 'being saved' in responding to an altar call and you hold to the concept of OSAS then the logical reasoning is that there is no amount of sin you committ which can result in you not reaching heaven - backsliding doesn't result in you 'losing' your salvation! How can anyone judge another person's heart? It is impossible surely to say with any certainty that someone was 'never saved' in the first place! Incidently I hope I didn't give the impression in my previous post that I felt very negative towards the Christians who did not accept my baptism in the anglican as being a valid confession of faith as a Christian! They were genuine people with a great love for God, and one or two of them have remained close friends over many years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Al, our posts crossed! :D I think we've said the same thing haven't we?! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 lol... i think so :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Hehe... Al, I may just follow you from post to post saying the same thing and then dUSt will be forced to give me a little flag!!!!! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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