Death Penalty (poll)

[kujo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506908' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:34 PM']Excuse me, the people in prison are there because they are convicted of a crime, and have the right to be protected from other prisoners just like the guards are. The prisons are much more dangerous without the death penalty.
And yes instead of building more expensive prisons to keep convicted murders on death row for the rest of their lives, why don't we carry out the sentences they were given and execute them? Sorry if that actually seems too logical to everyone. Again I can see why atheists object, but don't see why christians do.[/quote]

I agree. Prisoners should be protected, but you're saying the easiest way to do that is to just kill all of the convicted murders. How can you not see how ludicrous that is? Why not spend the ample money drained in our appeals system to do what I said: hire more guards, pay them more money, install more security measures, and offer more rehabilitative resources?

And I hear your pleas about the over-crowded prisons. And, while I accept that this will certainly be an unpopular view here, perhaps we should decriminalize a few things like marijuana and get the people who are in prison for that charge out of there.

Where there's a will, there's a way. I think we should try to make it so that the death penalty isn't as necessary. These things can accomplish this.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i know there's been cases where the lawyer didn't file the appeal soon enough etc. i do know the supreme court said go ahead and kill em, but that doesn't seem right bc of a technicality. i remember debating that here with some people, never really getting much of a satisfactory response other than "they had the trial" and "they were murderers" which are not necessarily either true andor adquate.

my point being, appeals should be given, regardless of techincalities, and all reasonable doubt taken away.

plus, a good catholic is bound to say only when it's warranted as last resort, which hardly exists. even if catholics here won't say it, it's bound to be said by good ones as it's a teaching of the church (even if it's only ordinary magisterial teaching and not yet and perhaps never will be a truly final teaching).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1506941' date='Apr 22 2008, 04:50 PM']Murder is the intentional taking of life.[/quote]
Murder is the willful killing of an [i]innocent[/i] human being.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506886' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:29 PM']Not all who are convicted are truly guilty.[/quote]

that fact does not make the death penalty wrong.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506938' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:48 PM']Don't you think telling someone they are gonna die on a certain date is not an incentive to repent???? If thats not incentive, I don't know what is![/quote]

seriously. That way they can repent and even go to confession like right before their execution so they can be assured of salvation, whereas if they were do die during a life sentence who knows if they would have the incentive to repent, believing they have time, when they might not.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1506946' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:53 PM']so it's like in one ear goes the catechism and pope "only in the msot extreme situation, which hardly do not ever exist" and then out the mouth goes "kill em all", without an explanation of how they're objecting.
it's an interesting phenomeonon[/quote]

I gave a reference as to why I believe the death penalty is justified. But apparently it can be ignored because it wasn't declared infallible.

"Let every soul be subject to higher powers. For there is no power but from God: and those that are ordained of God. Therefore, he that resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist purchase to themselves damnation. For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to thee, for good. [b]But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil[/b]" (Romans 13:1-4)

St. Augustine - City of God:

"The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" to wage war at God's bidding, or for the representatives of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to law or the rule of rational justice. (qtd. in Cardinal Avery Dulles, "Catholicism and Capital Punishment," First Things, April 2001)


Pope Innocent III - against the Waldensians: "Concerning secular power we declare that without mortal sin it is possible to exercise a judgment of blood as long as one proceeds to bring punishment not in hatred but in judgment, not incautiously but advisedly" (Denzinger 425).


Catechism of the Council of Trent:

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, [b]far from involving the crime of murder[/b], [u]is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment[/u] which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.


Fr. Heribert Jone - Moral Theology p. 140:

"214. Article II
Killing the Criminal

1. A criminal may be executed if juridical proof has established the moral certainty that he has committed a grave crime for which the state, in the interest of the common welfare, inflicts capital punishment, and if someone has been authorized by the state to execute the sentence . . . A criminal must be given an opportunity to receive the Sacraments before his execution. If he refuses to receive them, the sentence may nevertheless be carried out."


The Church has taken protection of the people into consideration also as an end of capital punishment. But that is not its ONLY purpose. It is a lawful PUNISHMENT.

Edited April 23, 2008 by goldenchild17

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506950' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:55 PM']Not necessarily. As a student, I know that I am not always mindful of due dates. Also, a lot can happen in any duration of time. Just as slow drops of water will eventually erode a rock, God's grace may eventually soften the hardest of hearts. I, for one, would not be one willing to end another life and deprive that person of God's actual or sanctifying grace that may have been dispensed in the future.[/quote]

". . . A criminal must be given an opportunity to receive the Sacraments before his execution. If he refuses to receive them, the sentence may nevertheless be carried out." Fr. Jone, Moral Theology

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='kujo' post='1507088' date='Apr 22 2008, 08:38 PM']I agree. Prisoners should be protected, but you're saying the easiest way to do that is to just kill all of the convicted murders. How can you not see how ludicrous that is? Why not spend the ample money drained in our appeals system to do what I said: hire more guards, pay them more money, install more security measures, and offer more rehabilitative resources?[/quote]
They still need to pay for the their crime and the Church has said that the death penalty is a viable punishment. Should it be used in all such cases? No, I think some cases can be made to let people go, I don't know for sure. But that doesn't mean the death penalty is not a viable option for a punishment. Why are we looking at it solely as a deterrent and as a way to protect innocent people? God has appointed lawful authorities to carry out earthly punishments (goodness knows He did so in the Old Testament for sure). This has been carried over to the New Covenant. It is a punishment not only a deterrent, and for this reason can never become outdated.
[quote]And I hear your pleas about the over-crowded prisons. And, while I accept that this will certainly be an unpopular view here, perhaps we should decriminalize a few things like marijuana and get the people who are in prison for that charge out of there.[/quote]

This I definitely agree with.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1507123' date='Apr 22 2008, 09:47 PM']plus, a good catholic is bound to say only when it's warranted as last resort, which hardly exists. even if catholics here won't say it, it's bound to be said by good ones as it's a teaching of the church (even if it's only ordinary magisterial teaching and not yet and perhaps never will be a truly final teaching).[/quote]

This has not been proven. Plenty of other sources say otherwise. The CCC does say so, but at the very least one can only say that its debatable, otherwise the CCC would contradict other sources of equal weight (i.e. previous catechisms) and that isn't able to happen.

Edited April 23, 2008 by goldenchild17

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1507261' date='Apr 23 2008, 01:28 AM']Murder is the willful killing of an [i]innocent[/i] human being.[/quote]

Not sure where you got this definition? No criminal statue in the United States and the United Kingdom, nor does the common law, include 'innocent' in their definition. The CCC doesn't include 'innocent' in its definition either.

This fits with out common sense. We call jail-yard killings murder. If a robbery goes bad and one bad guy shoots another, we still call it murder. If someone gets shot in a drug deal, its still murder.

[rkwright]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1507270' date='Apr 23 2008, 01:40 AM']seriously. That way they can repent and even go to confession like right before their execution so they can be assured of salvation, whereas if they were do die during a life sentence who knows if they would have the incentive to repent, believing they have time, when they might not.[/quote]

Seriously, I can't believe people are using this as a justification for executions. I can understand retribution and other reasons; but to kill people so that they might convert quicker - sounds like Islam in the 1100s!

[Didymus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1506877' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:26 PM']First of all, a person legally put to death by the state isn't murdered, they are exucuted. There is a big difference. They have been duly tried and convicted of a capital crime.
They are not innocent.[/quote]

If we cannot call this murder, than we cannot call abortion murder. How much more confidence must we put in our justice systems?

[kujo]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1507355' date='Apr 23 2008, 10:21 AM']Seriously, I can't believe people are using this as a justification for executions. I can understand retribution and other reasons; but to kill people so that they might convert quicker - sounds like Islam in the 1100s![/quote]

Haha. Ironic...good stuff.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1507268' date='Apr 23 2008, 02:38 AM']that fact does not make the death penalty wrong.[/quote]
I did not say that meaning that it makes the death pentalty wrong ipso facto, but to point out that some were assuming all who were convicted were guilty. Please read my sentence in the context of its reply. Thank you.

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1507277' date='Apr 23 2008, 03:16 AM']". . . A criminal must be given an opportunity to receive the Sacraments before his execution. If he refuses to receive them, the sentence may nevertheless be carried out." Fr. Jone, Moral Theology[/quote]One can cite quotations from varied sources, but unless one explains and applies a quotation, they carry little weight. Notice that the priest says that the sentence [i]may [/i]be carried out, not that it [i]must [/i]be carried out.

[quote]The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote]Pleae note that the Roman Catechism recognizes that the end of this Commandment is the protection and security of human life. If this is able to be done without a recourse to the death penalty, then why inflict the death penalty at all? Keep in mind that advancements have been made in the civil realm since the Roman Catechism. There is a difference between dogma, doctrine, and discipline.

[quote]A criminal may be executed if juridical proof has established the moral certainty that he has committed a grave crime for which the state, in the interest of the common welfare, inflicts capital punishment, and if someone has been authorized by the state to execute the sentence[/quote]Let us notice here that the death penalty requires moral certainty. Are our juries properly educated in what required for moral certainty? Furthermore, the quotation presumes that the state has already made a correct judgment in proscribing capital punishment for an offense. This does not prove that capital punishment as a punishment is permissible, but that its application, once decided to be permissible, is lawful. It presumes that a state may decide correctly what is punishible by death.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Paphnutius

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Deb' post='1506184' date='Apr 21 2008, 09:35 PM']Governments should not be in the business of killing people for criminal acts. Life with no parole is more of a deterrent than anything else and keeps the evil ones away from the public.[/quote]
Let me see your stats because the actual stats are quite different. There is a stat from from Yale and some others that show it does deture murder. It is a states moral responsibility to execute certain types of criminals.