Justification

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1506990' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:44 PM']Of course, men will not because the lust for money is the root of all evil. The politicians who get campaign contributions from egregious companies who are practicing those things will not make the laws, and the companies who do it will not repent either, because they are getting too much money.

I am reminded by the movie Erin Brockovich, based on a true story, where a company printed up flyers that told its employees the chemicals - which caused severe cancer - were absolutely harmless. Why is it, if one man decides to destroy men, women, and children can be called a serial killer, and be executed, and the executive boards of companies who do the very same things get off with only paying the survivors of the ones they killed, and we don't consider them serial killers who have no moral decency?

They are just as bad, and I think the leaders of companies who are doing such things, endangering our health, should be considered a bunch of serial killers![/quote]
Money is not the root of all evil Pride is the root of all evil, greed is one manifestation of pride. I do agree that there are corrupt people, however nothing God makes is evil including us. we do have original sin but that is not the same as BEING evil, we tend too evil, and we also tend to good it is part of our conflicted nature.

[CatherineM]

The Buddhists believe that all human suffering comes from desire. I think people are much more content with their lives when they are content with what they have, pride and the pursuit of money are both things that can lead to being miserable.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1507028' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:12 PM']i mean, they could always point to galatians i blieve "by grace are ye saved, not of works, lest any man should boast"

but, giving what Jesus says about works, and all the stuff in this thread etc, i don't see how you could insist on the prot theory on that one verse. it's equally plausible that he was talking about works without the grace of God, human machinations of movement etc.[/quote]I've never been affiliated with a religious organization other than the Catholic Church, but I have had this conversation with many non-Catholic Christian friends.

They said to me:
(1) Catholics believe in justification through works instead of faith.
(2) Once a person is saved through their faith they are saved forever.
(3) If a person who had claimed to be saved later went about sinning like crazy or became blasphemous, he or she never truly saved in the first place. He or she either faked it to be accepted or were tricked by the devil in order to tempt others who had been truly saved.

My responses were:
(1) Not true. We emphasize living our faith. We don't necessarily separate the terms "works" and "faith" because the two are intimately intertwined.
(2) Salvation is a journey. We're on a path illuminated by the Messiah. Every step we take is either toward or away from God.
(3) People can stray from the path at any point. It does not mean that they were never on the path.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1509199' date='Apr 25 2008, 12:12 AM']Your not a Christian. Christian means that you affirm Christ and all his teaching and all he left including the church. your a pagan dressed in fancy cloths. and yes Eugenics is evil, to "design" a baby is evil.[/quote]

Um, check yo' Catechism... all who believe in Christ as God and Savior are rightly called Christian.

And I think you misunderstood what he was saying about Eugenics.

Edited April 25, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1509364' date='Apr 25 2008, 09:42 AM'](1) Not true. We emphasize living our faith. We don't necessarily separate the terms "works" and "faith" because the two are intimately intertwined.[/quote]

You can also emphasize that we do agree on salvation by grace alone, which comes through Christ alone. I think Protestants often misinterpret the sacraments as salvation by works, but the bottom line is there is little real disagreement on this matter, but primarily a misunderstanding.

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1509364' date='Apr 25 2008, 09:42 AM'](2) Salvation is a journey. We're on a path illuminated by the Messiah. Every step we take is either toward or away from God.
(3) People can stray from the path at any point. It does not mean that they were never on the path.[/quote]

As for Once Saved, Always Saved, most Protestants reject this too. I know quite a few Five-Point Calvinists who embrace this wholeheartedly and I think the bottom line is, seeing as it's debated even among fellow Calvinists, that there is no true authority. The argument ultimately leads to how we understand the authority of Scripture and how we know which interpretation is correct.

[picchick]

This is how I think of it: I have the "prove it" frame of mind. You believe in Jesus? You believe in God? You have faith? Prove it!

Faith without works is like faith without proving that you have faith. That is why faith without works is dead faith. If you cannot show your faith to others through the works you do, then you cannot claim that you have faith. What is the point in believing and having faith if you do not share it with others?

Do you remember Jesus saying in the NT about how if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains? If someone is able to move mountains with a tiny bit of faith, then works should naturally flow from it, I would think.

Faith is also growing. Mine I know is constantly growing and growing throughout my life. I am sure that God not only graces everyone for their faith proved through works in a specific point in time but also a continual "infusion" (sorry my nurse is showing) of grace to help perform those works.

I hope I am staying on topic...

[Deb]

[quote name='picchick' post='1509399' date='Apr 25 2008, 09:38 AM']This is how I think of it: I have the "prove it" frame of mind. You believe in Jesus? You believe in God? You have faith? Prove it!

Faith without works is like faith without proving that you have faith. That is why faith without works is dead faith. If you cannot show your faith to others through the works you do, then you cannot claim that you have faith. What is the point in believing and having faith if you do not share it with others?

Do you remember Jesus saying in the NT about how if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains? If someone is able to move mountains with a tiny bit of faith, then works should naturally flow from it, I would think.

Faith is also growing. Mine I know is constantly growing and growing throughout my life. I am sure that God not only graces everyone for their faith proved through works in a specific point in time but also a continual "infusion" (sorry my nurse is showing) of grace to help perform those works.

I hope I am staying on topic...[/quote]

I agree completely. If you have faith and continually strive to be more like Jesus Christ, it will manifest itself in the works that you do. All good comes from God and the more faith we have in that, the more it comes out in the way we live our lives and the work we do. True faith will motivate you to share that faith with others in your words and in your deeds. You can't help it, God makes it happen.

[dairygirl4u2c]

apo.... how would you describe the atonement? i don't like the idea of legal atonement, or legal justification etc. the irony of course is that i often get caught up in the prot catholic type rhetoric on the matter. like speaking in human terms for something i don't even believe describes true reality.
i know you follow eastern ways of thought so get your ideas.

i like the idea of simply saying jesus is a savior in that he medicallly resusitates us, saves us whereever we go, has a good message, is divine and can intercede etc... just uncomfortable saying anything legal related.

but with taht said... orthodox and easterns say that atonement occured at death... does this simply mean he had to die to be able to fully become a savior by not being in person form etc, or what? cause i don't see why he had to die necessarily, if you don't look at it as legal atonement. but i do see why he had to for some purposes but not sure what the west wuld say those purposes are.

so i guess i mostly am asking how you square the necessity of his death, or what his death means, with eastern ideas on theosis and atonement.
that's a point that seems kind of vague from the east (recognizing they are not as intent on defining everything as the west is so maybe no definitive answer but)

Edited April 25, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1509399' date='Apr 25 2008, 08:38 AM']This is how I think of it: I have the "prove it" frame of mind. You believe in Jesus? You believe in God? You have faith? Prove it!

Faith without works is like faith without proving that you have faith. That is why faith without works is dead faith. If you cannot show your faith to others through the works you do, then you cannot claim that you have faith. What is the point in believing and having faith if you do not share it with others?

Do you remember Jesus saying in the NT about how if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains? If someone is able to move mountains with a tiny bit of faith, then works should naturally flow from it, I would think.

Faith is also growing. Mine I know is constantly growing and growing throughout my life. I am sure that God not only graces everyone for their faith proved through works in a specific point in time but also a continual "infusion" (sorry my nurse is showing) of grace to help perform those works.

I hope I am staying on topic...[/quote]

What if the only proof is the people you testified too, when God motivated it, and they responded?

Show your faith?

What if the proof was just praying to God in your closet for sinners to repent, and half way around the world God fulfills your prayer with a revival in Afghanistan?

Works are done in secret, and then shared when they are in the open. There are little old ladies who are praying right now, for God to help their communities, and their churches, that God will reveal their works after.

But those works don't qualify us for grace. Grace is undeserved. I can do nothing to force God to forgive me of my sins. There is nothing I can do to remove the sins I have committed. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation.

But God loved me, and sent his son for my salvation.

And now, I gratefully accept that salvation by sharing it with others, sharing God's insights with others. But that doesn't mean that I am earning salvation. I can't earn salvation through these acts.

I am here by the grace of God alone. I can do nothing without Jesus. Everytime I do something on my own, God just warns me and repremends me for my rebellion. God alone is my salvation, and there is nothing I can do but trust in his inpeccable character.

Edited April 25, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[picchick]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1509838' date='Apr 25 2008, 06:59 PM']What if the only proof is the people you testified too, when God motivated it, and they responded?

Show your faith?

What if the proof was just praying to God in your closet for sinners to repent, and half way around the world God fulfills your prayer with a revival in Afghanistan?

Works are done in secret, and then shared when they are in the open. There are little old ladies who are praying right now, for God to help their communities, and their churches, that God will reveal their works after.

But those works don't qualify us for grace. Grace is undeserved. I can do nothing to force God to forgive me of my sins. There is nothing I can do to remove the sins I have committed. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation.

But God loved me, and sent his son for my salvation.

And now, I gratefully accept that salvation by sharing it with others, sharing God's insights with others. But that doesn't mean that I am earning salvation. I can't earn salvation through these acts.

I am here by the grace of God alone. I can do nothing without Jesus. Everytime I do something on my own, God just warns me and repremends me for my rebellion. God alone is my salvation, and there is nothing I can do but trust in his inpeccable character.[/quote]


I think you misunderstood me....
I am not saying prove it to me per se. I am saying prove it to God. Works will come naturally if you have faith. It is something that cannot be helped. If you have such a strong faith in God your heart would be overfilled with joy that you would naturally want to share it with those around you.

Only God can see the good we do. Most of the good we do is hidden or goes unappreciated by the world. But God sees the good we do and He rewards us with grace.

Do not tell me that when God does not help me do these good deeds. Do not tell that God does not grant me the grace for the works I do. It is only by that grace and by my faith in God that I perform them.

If someone says they have faith but does nothing about it...does not pray/talk to God, does not perform works of charity what is it of his faith? It is dead.

[KnightofChrist]

[b]Showing, Living the faith[/b]

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[b]Not showing not living the faith.[/b]

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[dairygirl4u2c]

you cna't really argue "prove it" means catholics are earning something onlygrace can give. "prove it" is teh whole point of James 2, even by noncatholic standards.

you cant say catholics think X amount oeaf works saves, cause that's not at least a real doctrine of theirs.

the only thing you can argue against is the idea that santification also justifies.
protetstants thinks works are required, just not taht they justify.
so, in both camps, the same amount of works are required. the only question is what they accomplish in the economy of salvation.

i'm just making the point ot be clear, as i'm either misreading people or they misunderstand it. it's important distinctions i'm drawing.

Edited April 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[picchick]

Dairygirl...I'm sorry...am I on or off topic? I got side tracked....also am I making sense?

Edited April 26, 2008 by picchick

[dairygirl4u2c]

i was mostly speaking to jesusismy

your points are important, more incidental to the thread i'd say, as "prove it" seems vague and doesn't describe how works are applied etc. a protestant cannot disagree with "prove it" after all, a decent protestant anyway.

now, they might disagree with what you are trying to insinuate, but taht gets into the more defined terms like "santification" and "justification" and what i have been talking about.

for jesusismy to debate what you said... given how nondisagreeable it is what you said... is just quibbling and not really getting to the essence of the issue, cause what you said, on its face, again is not something that can be disagreed with.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1509873' date='Apr 25 2008, 06:33 PM']I think you misunderstood me....
I am not saying prove it to me per se. I am saying prove it to God. Works will come naturally if you have faith. It is something that cannot be helped. If you have such a strong faith in God your heart would be overfilled with joy that you would naturally want to share it with those around you.

Only God can see the good we do. Most of the good we do is hidden or goes unappreciated by the world. But God sees the good we do and He rewards us with grace.

Do not tell me that when God does not help me do these good deeds. Do not tell that God does not grant me the grace for the works I do. It is only by that grace and by my faith in God that I perform them.

If someone says they have faith but does nothing about it...does not pray/talk to God, does not perform works of charity what is it of his faith? It is dead.[/quote]

One of my posting styles is to take a post from someone, which goes in line with what I would like to say, and just put a couple of thoughts.

I like the thoughts you have put forward.

I agree, you can't have dead faith.

I am glad you are thinking before you answer, because I appreciate your answer a lot. If you have a heart of worship filled with joy because Jesus died for your sins, then get excited, share it with others, as God moves you to.

I can tell you have a gentle spirit, and an understanding of the works of God. Continue to pray and read your bible sister. You will be a great witness for God, when the time comes. Perhaps you should start a bible study group. Do you go to college? Maybe its time for you to start advertising a bible study group, if you're up for it.