Mr Carter And Hamas

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1506282' date='Apr 21 2008, 09:57 PM']Carter got pegged with the anti semite label after his last book. The evidence was so bad that he lost half the board of the Carter Center.[/quote]

Thanks for mentioning that. I had forgotten all about THE BOOK.

The book notwithstanding, I cannot see how Carter could be anything but a Jew-hater. He holds hands with terrorists who want to not only deny Israel the right to exist (if anyone has no right to exist, it's "Palestine") but also wants to "drive Israel into the sea" to the point that it is "wiped off the map". Not only is Israel in immediate and real danger from Palestinian terrorists Hamas and Hizbollah, but by all its neighbors who are in cohoots with these terrorists to see to Israel's destruction. Thus, Carter's buffoonery is not only lending legitimacy to Hamas but to all the millions and millions and millions of anti-Semitic Islamofascists in the Middle East and indeed, around the world.

And the audacity of Carter to sit down with these thugs, brutes and murderers to draw up a "peace" plan that will include Israel giving up part of its land. UNTHINKABLE!! Israel has already given up part of its land...and is there peace? No.

When will people get it? Islamic terrorists do not want to hammer out any peace plans, make concessions, negotiate or make compromises. They want to destroy Israel. Period.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1506128' date='Apr 21 2008, 08:34 PM']Madame-you seem so angry all the time.[/quote]

You guys are just full of accusations in here, aren't you? If it's not "windbaggery" then it's "ha-te speech" and it's not that then it's "angry all the time". Anything to deflect from having to deal with the actual content of what I'm saying. It's incredible that from two sentences that stated THE TRUTH you would accuse me of anger. I stated that Carter hangs out with terrorists. He does. I stated that he's a Jew-hater. He is.

What's angry about that? Nothing.

[Aloysius]

Jimmy Carter wasn't a good president.

But his intentions here are noble and those who say we should refuse to talk to Hamas are not following Catholic principals. We should talk to anybody who is willing to talk to us in order to attempt to achieve peace. Blessed are the peacemakers. Ignoring the Palestinians will not help ease the tensions caused by their oppression by the old british colony of European Jews known as Israel.

And supporting the rights of the indigenous Palestinians over the rights of a colonial state like Israel to have sovereignty over their own lands is NOT anti-semitic... in fact, Palestinians are semites themselves... but it's not anti-Jewish either; it's anti-oppression. Carter obviously is not supporting terrorist actions but trying to work with the main organized body of people who are asking for their right to self-determination and freedom from Israeli oppression.

All that said, this is a futile effort that will not bear fruit at all and might just make matters worse. Notice how he came out and said they'd be willing to accept the '67 borders and recognize Israel but they responded with yes to '67 borders and no to recognizing Israel? If Carter was a better negotiator he'd have known not to come out with a ridiculous claim that that side actually had not agreed to.

what really needs to happen is for actual governments to sit down with all sides and hammer out something that definitively establishes a Free Palestinian state and legitimately removes Israeli occupation from Palestinian lands; obviously it'd have to be a form of partition as the European Jewish Colonists are not going to pack up and move back to Europe after a few generations (even though they packed up and moved back to Palestine after a couple millenia and claimed it as their own again)... the '67 borders would be a good idea; and then a peace treaty needs to be definitively worked out between those two nations. so long as we're dealing with a mass of people discontented with their lack of a nation, we'll never find a Palestinian government willing to hold up its end of a treaty. if they're a nation which must keep peace with its neighbors for fear of going to war with them, they'll be much more willing to follow treaties for the sake of protecting that country which they won.

[Deb]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1506503' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:28 AM']Communism. You know who you are, too. Back from Darfur yet, Deb?[/quote]


Your exorcism is scheduled for 9:00 am.

[CatherineM]

To make peace you always have to sit down with people that have caused terror. We had to sit down after WWII with the men involved in genocide in Europe and in Asia. Roosevelt had to sit down with Stalin. MacArthur had to sit down with the Japanese that sent his men on the Death March. Can you image how hard that was? How do you guys think that peace in the middle east is going to happen? They have been fighting over that same scrap of land for millennium. Everyone has a claim to some part of it from some time in the past. I'm surprised that the decedents of the Philistines haven't started bombing everyone too so they could reclaim Gaza.

[CatherineM]

I was also wondering how the shape of the Middle East would be right now if the Israelis had taken the land offered to them in either Australia or South America. I think it was in Argentina. I know it was vacant, and more fertile.

I live on land, as probably most of you do as well, that was once Native land. If the government voted tomorrow to return it to the first nations, I'd be pretty mad. What they'd want with this old condo, I don't know, but they are fighting in the national courts for it. I guess I'd dig up the apple trees I planted last year for sure. It does make me think about how angry the Palestinians were when the UN voted to give away their land to the new nation of Israel.

And before you start calling me an anti-Semite, I'm far from it. I'm somewhat comforted by the Jewish control of Jerusalem. I think they are more respectful of our shrines and pilgrims. I was just wondering how things would be different now if Israel was a nation in South American rather than the middle east.

[Deb]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1506685' date='Apr 22 2008, 12:43 PM']To make peace you always have to sit down with people that have caused terror. We had to sit down after WWII with the men involved in genocide in Europe and in Asia. Roosevelt had to sit down with Stalin. MacArthur had to sit down with the Japanese that sent his men on the Death March. Can you image how hard that was? How do you guys think that peace in the middle east is going to happen? They have been fighting over that same scrap of land for millennium. Everyone has a claim to some part of it from some time in the past. I'm surprised that the decedents of the Philistines haven't started bombing everyone too so they could reclaim Gaza.[/quote]


I am not even sure it could be done on this site.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1506702' date='Apr 22 2008, 12:34 PM']I was also wondering how the shape of the Middle East would be right now if the Israelis had taken the land offered to them in either Australia or South America. I think it was in Argentina. I know it was vacant, and more fertile.[/quote]

It wasn't their homeland. Israel is their homeland. The land God gave to them 4,000 years ago. It is theirs and no one has a right to take it from them.

Honestly can't understand how this is up for debate amongst Catholics. Their history is in our BIBLE.

[CatherineM]

Yes, and the Great Spirit gave the land under my condo to the Papaschase First Nation 13,000 years ago.

[Deb]

Hmm, us so called Americans have only been here for about 600 years and we murdered just about all the native people and took their land. Maybe we should give it back to them now. It isn't like they even got up and left and then returned.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Deb' post='1506131' date='Apr 21 2008, 09:42 PM']I love Jimmy Carter. He was actually a President who lived his faith while in office. He just wasn't enough of a hypocrite to pretend to be anything than other than what he was. A man who truly cared for all the people of the world.
He has done more for more people that most citizens of this country and certainly more than any of the Presidents, past or present.
hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) speech against anyone isn't really a part of Phatmass. At least not since I have been here. You know who you are.
Windbaggery.[/quote]

Carter did a lot for me. When gas was rationed and the lines at the gas stations were hours long, I made good money selling coffee from my little thermos to all those people waiting in line. Mortgage rates were 20%. Inflation and double digit inflation. As I child I dreamt of visiting Iran where my dad spent so much time. Somehow I doubt that I will get there anytime soon. Thanks to Mr. Carter's disastrous foreign policy the Shite radicals were given a country to base themselves and will soon have nuclear weapons. Yes, he cared but he was incredibly incompetent. As the expression goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1506955' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:58 PM']Yes, and the Great Spirit gave the land under my condo to the Papaschase First Nation 13,000 years ago.[/quote]

Catherine, the discussion isn't about Native Americans. It's about Israelis. Can you not talk about Israelis without bringing in other groups?

And furthermore, the history of the Native American peoples is not in our Bible. You did sort of conveniently ignore that point that I tried to make.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1506939' date='Apr 22 2008, 07:49 PM']It wasn't their homeland. Israel is their homeland. The land God gave to them 4,000 years ago. It is theirs and no one has a right to take it from them.

Honestly can't understand how this is up for debate amongst Catholics. Their history is in our BIBLE.[/quote]
yes, and our theology teaches that the Church is the New Israel and that the destruction of the Temple was a sign of the transference of the covenant to the Church and the end of their claim to the Holy Land. Even their own Orthodox Theology always taught, prior to the creation of the secular Zionist state, that they had been exiled from the Holy Land and could only re-enter it if the Messiah led them. if a Catholic wishes the Holy Land to be the land promised to Israel in political reality right now, that Catholic ought to believe that Christendom should be in control of the Holy Land because the Church is the New Israel. However, most Catholics hold that the promised land is to be sorted out in the End Times when the earth is remade and renewed, ie that there should be no attempt to bring a political reality that brings the New Israel into control there. No more than there should be a political reality for the New Israel than there should be a false Israel based upon the continuation of the old covenant which was fulfilled (though really that false Israel is based upon secularist zionism and nothing more)

it shouldn't be a debate among Catholics: we should agree with the Orthodox Rabbis who used to teach that the Jewish people had been exiled from the Holy Land and could not re-enter it except if led by the Messiah, and that if they did so it would cause massive problems. If you don't agree with the former statement, at least you have to be honest and agree that the latter statement was true because that has been the source of most of the violence of the past 50 years. This is what the Orthodox Rabbis tried to tell the secular Zionists when they were first coming up with this plan but sadly they did not listen and founded a secular European colony under the guise of a continuation of a covenant which has long since been fulfilled and offered in its completeness through the Catholic Church.

the Jewish people lived for over a millenium in Europe. that makes them Europeans. everywhere but here European Colonialism is condemned as horrid and barbaric, but here where these colonists oppress the native Palestinians, we are asked to shut up or else be labeled anti-semitic.

it is most definitively unCatholic to support the nation of Israel's occupation of Palestinean lands. For there is no longer Jew or Gentile in Christ, the Jews have no more claim to that land than the Palestinians... and actually they have less of a claim to it because they have a millenium of European descent.

I couldn't go up to Inishowen in Donegal and declare that myself and my family deserve to own land there... and we've only been gone a century. My whole family couldn't really try to re-establish governing control over there, even though it's only been about 5 centuries since the last cheiftan of our clan lost power. And the Jews who lived in Europe more than a millennium did not have the right to take that land from the Palestinians.

[CatherineM]

Madame-I was bring up the Native Americans because the Palestinians feel the same way about the loss of their land 60 years ago as the Natives feel about the loss of their land 100-200 years ago. Yes, I believe that our Bible is the inspired word of God, but not everyone that we share this planet with believes what I do. You do understand that we have to share the planet? Where in the New Testament does Christ say that we are allowed to just trample over everyone because we have the "true faith." The point I was trying to make, which apparently was lost on you, is that I would feel the same as the Palestinians if someone came in and took my property away to give it back to someone who hadn't had a claim to it in many years, had given up their rights to it by vacating it, by losing it, by selling it, etc. My neighbors and I would probably be very much like the Palestinians in fighting it in the streets if necessary.

[Aloysius]

moreover, Catholic theology (The New Covenant fulfills the Old), anthropology (there is no longer Jew nor Greek...), ecclesiology (the Church is the New Israel and Ancient Israel is no more), and eschatology (the heavenly Jerusalem will descend in the end) explicitly rejects the idea that the Jews have a divine right to the Holy Land in the present world. At the End of Time, the Holy Land as promised to the Chosen People, the New Israel, will be restored to what it was always meant to be. On this we can agree with the orthodox Jewish theology (rather than modernist liberal Jewish theology and secular Zionism): Israel will return to the Promised Land when the Messiah comes in glory.

the present state of Israel is NOT the tribe of Israel, it is NOT the true Israel, it is a modern secular nation-state which claims the name of a biblical people; it is formed by people who are descended from people who lived there millenia ago, but who have since taken root in Europe and are as much a part of European Tradition as any other race of people in Europe are. If there were an Irish colonial nation-state in Iran it would be no different, because the celts originally migrated from as far away as Persia and have just as much claim to hold a nation-state in that area as European Jews have a claim to hold a nation-state in Palestine.