Did John Kerry Lie About Abortion?

[smeagol]

kerry is an evil crook, snake, liar because:

(A) he voted against spending even MORE money on defense.

(B) he accepted a lot of (legal) money for his campaign.

© he advertised against Bush's policies

(D) iron munk said so.

none of these reasons are good enough imo to say that Kerry is an integrity-less "man" who is a crooked, liar and snake. neither are they enough to say that anyone who supports Kerry is ignorant or evil. iron munk has clearly not used reason in his past few posts (but i am willing to forgive him)

(A) he voted against spending even MORE money on defense.

the first thought i got when iron munk used the reason that kerry didnt want the govt to buy all these hightech weapons (B-2 Stealth Bomber, the B-1B, the F-15, the F-16, the M1 Abrams, the Patriot Missile, the AH-64 Apache Helicopter, the Tomahawk Cruise Missile, and the Aegis Air-Defense Cruiser) in order to say that kerry was an evil "man" was that i thought an 'evil' man would want to stock up on killing machines. a 'good' "man" wouldn't want to invest so heavily in these sort of weapons. a "good guy" would use more nonviolent means. ... but since i agree we must be prepared to defend our nation, i concede that some weapons are absolutely necessary, but when the United States is spending more on its national defense than the next twenty or so countries, i think it might be somewhat safe to lay off a little on the spending. we need better intel not better equipment. its efficiency of spending not amount of spending that we're not good enough at. (check this page out if you dont believe me: http://www.cdi.org/budget/2004/world-military-spending.cfm )

(B) he accepted a lot of (legal) money for his campaign.

the quote you used applies just as much if not more to Bush. Cheney's ties with halliburton and bush's enron buddy ken lay scare me much much more than anything Kerry has done. if he's so corrupt, give us an example, munky.

© he advertised against Bush's policies

if a lot of people think that something is good, when lots of the evidence shows otherwise, i think it is right to inform and try to convince them that its not really as good as they think it is. Bush isn't as good as lots of people think he is. when the govt is increasing spending but cutting its revenue (tax cuts), that's not really 'tax cuts' according to Thomas Friedman of the New York Times. that's tax deferrals, for our children to pay off in the future. here's a good quote from him:

And please don't tell me the tax cuts are working. Of course they're working! If you put this much stimulus into our economy — three tax cuts, loose monetary policy and out-of-control spending — it will produce a boom. Eat 10 chocolate bars at once and you'll also get a rush. But at what long-term cost?

...This is so irresponsible and it will end in tears. Remember, says Mr. Peterson, long-term tax cuts without long-term spending cuts are not tax cuts. They are "tax deferrals" — with the burden to be borne by your future or your kid's future.

If this isn't the election issue, I don't know what is.

(D) iron munk said so.

believe it or not, munky isn't always right. he doesn't always have all the facts. he doesn't always think things through completely... but then again, who of us do?

friends? :D

[littleflower+JMJ]

thanks for the info ironmonk!

john kerry isn't getting my vote!

some ppl........

[smeagol]

It is moronic to say that choice is above human life.

The opposition has been listened to, they refuse to listen to the facts... that is moronic.

This goes back a few months, you're coming into this in the middle of an ongoing dialog, so you do not see the full picture, let her answer.

You are clueless to the facts of why I wrote what I wrote. I have not belittled anyone, their own words have belittled them.

-ironmonk

i have red [sic] everything in this thread. i was not here since the beginning so i shouldn't be here ? come again? but anyway...

of course i'm clueless as to why you wrote what you did!!!! we all are!!! sorry but i am no longer proficient in ESP. i fell and hit my head last week so forgive me if i'm unable to read your mind... i can only reply to what you wrote, not what you were thinking while you wrote them. duh.

btw, you clearly belittled people by calling them geniuses and liars. i support kerry. what am i, munky? ignorant? or evil? gimme a break. as i said before, quit using your Christian membership card to be so rude to everyone else. last time i checked "servants of Christ" were supposed to be forgiving and loving instead of spewing insults.

heres a quote from you:

The personhood of a unborn baby is not disputed, only geniuses and liars try to say so.

The personhood of an unborn baby IS disputed. it is a fact. people have disputes as to what constitutes personhood relating to when it begins. is it at conception? at birth? somewhere in between? it is a FACT that people dispute over this issue. only geniuses or liars would try to tell me that everyone agrees on the personhood of an unborn baby. it is NOT unanimous, no matter how much you will it. and we cannot ignore this FACT. we must address it and listen to the opposition instead of spewing insults on them and scaring them away and belittling them. that will only hurt our own cause and like i said, further the chasm between prolifers and prochoicers.

[littleflower+JMJ]

kerry is E.) all the above with what he has on his agenda. :shame:

his a supporter of abortion, May God have mercy on his soul and may he have a change of heart.

and if we vote for a pro-DEATH candidate we are only furthering and helping this great evil and sinful act.

[smeagol]

kerry is E.) all the above with what he has on his agenda. :shame:

forgive me for not seeing how that makes sense in regard to my post. so kerry is "because monk said so" also ?

did you even read my post ? does anybody on this board have any comments on kerry notwithstanding the issue of abortion?

[littleflower+JMJ]

forgive me for not seeing how that makes sense in regard to my post. so kerry is "because monk said so" also ? 

did you even read my post ? does anybody on this board have any comments on kerry notwithstanding the issue of abortion?

i read it smeagol. and the facts and quotes from kerry speak for themselves. ironmonk was saying what was correctly intrepretated from the article.

i cannot ignore the fact that a man supports killing and murdering the innocent unborn children in our country.

not only that but is willing and open to spreading this great evil and enslaving other country to this evil act also.

abortion is the root of all evil acts and is the sole issue because if they can NOT recognize the dignity and sacredneess of life at its earliest stages, and do not up hold the respect LIFE deserves, then I can NOT expect any good from them.

abortion doesn't solve problems, it creates more.

if we want to help end world hunger, if we want to help fix our economy, if we want to help the homeless, sick and dying, we have to FIRST make our country realize that an unborn baby is LIFE. because abortion directly attacks preserving LIFE in all stages and levels.

again, kerry supports abortion, and that is enough to say that He does not care for the humans and the dignity of LIFE.

God bless,

flowery

+JMJ

[smeagol]

ok let me get this straight... you're saying that abortion is the root of all evil? if only we were to rid the world of abortion, everything else would just fall in place. if we overturn Roe v Wade, the economy would get better, Ethiopian kids would have access to food, Iraqis would have protected liberty, there would be peace between the Israelis and Palestinians; the Indians and Pakistanis, Japan's economy would turnaround, Kim Jong Il would shut down his plutonium factories in Yongbyon, corruption on Capitol Hill would cease, etc. !?!!!?!? if only we can get rid of abortion, the world would have peace...

i agree. abortion is very very bad. but so are many other things. other things that kill people directly or indirectly. or make peoples lives so bad that they may not be considered worth living at all. how on earth can we ignore these unjustices ? i'm still unclear on the relationship between abortion and world hunger. abortion and operation iraqi freedom. abortion and the economy. (well, i guess if no one aborts, there will be more of our children to pay off bush's growing deficits )

edit: it's past my bedtime :ph34r: so no more engaging debate tonight! sweet dreams, all! and oh yeah!

.,..............

don't forget to say your prayers!

Edited February 26, 2004 by smeagol

[littleflower+JMJ]

simple.

cuz the greatest sin of murdering millions children far passes anything else!

you cannot expect to find solutions to many of today problems because they are most likely what has been an outcome and a result of abortion.

abortion spreads evil, because it is an evil act. its one of the most gravest sins there is, to murder and kill a child from his or her's mothers womb.

we cannot expect to find solutions to many other of today's problems because havign aboriton legal plays a role in it all.

abortion is the sole issue because it allows the death to millions of babies each year.

you cannot get rid of weeds by just plucking at the surface, less it grows back again....you have to dig to the very bottom, uproot it, to stop it from growing.

same with all things that hurt and do not respect LIFE, abortion is what keeps it grounded and alive in our world today.

abortion must stop. again, if we expect to recognize LIFE and respect it. then we must NOT fail to recognize LIFE in its earliest stages. for if we cannot recognize the respect that LIFE deserves in its earliest stages, then HOW are to uphold it in any other stage of LIFE?

if its okay to kill a unborn baby, then we are okaying everything that goes against LIFE.

"Christ is Life, and to stand with Him is to stand with Life, and against whatever destroys life. Nothing in our society destroys more life than abortion (4000 per day)."

"Protecting human life is no more a sectarian creed than the Declaration of Independence is a sectarian document. Because all rights depend on life, the right to life is the most fundamental issue in any campaign."

we cannot expect anything until abortion is defeated and LIFE gets respect in its earliest stages......thast why as christians LIFE is the sole issue. and it is through abortion that the greatest attack is being made!

read more about it at http://www.priestsforlife.org

God BLess,

flowery

+JMJ

[littleflower+JMJ]

here our very own Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta, who fougth everyday the world's hungry, sick, dying, lonely, lost and those who were poor, teaches us, and evne though she is gone shows us the way thru her words that despite all the world's problem, its killing an unborn child that's the greatest sin and destroyer in today's world and time.

*************************

"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? "

"By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And, by abortion, that father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. The father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. "

"This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion."

"Many people are very, very concerned with the children of India, with the children of Africa where quite a few die of hunger, and so on. Many people are also concerned about all the violence in this great country of the United States. These concerns are very good. But often these same people are not concerned with the millions who are being killed by the deliberate decision of their own mothers. And this is what is the greatest destroyer of peace today - abortion which brings people to such blindness."

" We cannot solve all the problems in the world, but let us never bring in the worst problem of all, and that is to destroy love. And this is whathappens when we tell people to practice contraception and abortion."

"If we remember that God loves us, and that we can love others as He loves us, then America can become a sign of peace for the world. From here, a sign of care for the weakest of the weak - the unborn child - must go out to the world. If you become a burning light of justice and peace in the world, then really you will be true to what the founders of this country stood for. "

--words from Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta

An address at the National Prayer Breakfast (Sponsored by the

U.S. Senate and House of Representatives) February 3, 1994

God bless,

flowery

+JMJ

[littleflower+JMJ]

heres' another amesome one by Blessed Mother Teresa! :)one of the greatest modern day defender of our times!! helping the Old, the young, the most importantly the Unborn, feeding the hungry, speaking of peace.....a true servant of God........

PRO-LIFE MESSAGE TO SUPREME COURT

"America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe vs. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father's role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts--a child--as a competitor, an intrusion and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the dependent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters. And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners.

"Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government," she said. "They are every human being's entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or sovereign. The Constitutional Court of the Federal Republic of Germany recently ruled: 'The unborn child is entitled to its right to life independently of its acceptance by its mother; this is an elementary and inalienable right which emanates from the dignity of the human being.'

"Americans may feel justly proud that Germany in 1993 was able to recognize the sanctity of human life. You must weep that your own government, at present, seems blind to this truth."

******************

STATEMENT BY MOTHER TERESA SENT TO THE CAIRO INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT ON SEPT. 9, 1994

"I speak today to you from my heart - to each person in all the nations of the world, to people with power to make big decisions as well as to all the mothers, fathers and children in the cities, towns and villages.

"Each one of us is here today because we have been loved by God who created us and our parents who accepted and cared enough to give us life. Life is the most beautiful gift of God. That is why it is so painful to see what is happening today in so many places around the world: life is being deliberately destroyed by war, by violence, by abortion. And we have been created by God for greater things - to love and be loved.

"I have said often, and I am sure of it, that the greatest destroyer of peace in the world today is abortion. If a mother can kill her own child, what is there to stop you and me from killing each other? The only one who has the right to take life is the One who has created it. Nobody else has that right: not conference, no government.

"I am sure that deep down in your heart, you know that the unborn child is a human being loved by God, like you and me. How can anyone knowing that, deliberately destroy that life? It frightens me to think of all the people who kill their

conscience so that they can perform an abortion. When we die, we will come face to face with God, the Author of life. Who will give an account to God for the millions and millions of babies who were not allowed to have the chance to live, to experience loving and being loved?

"God has created a world big enough for all the lives He wishes to be born. It is only our hearts that are not big enough to want them and accept them. If all the money that is being spent on finding ways to kill people was used instead to feed them and house them and educate them - how beautiful that would be. We are too often afraid of the sacrifices we might have to make. But where there is love, there is always sacrifice. And when we love until it hurts, there is joy and peace.

"If there is a child that you don't want or can't feed or educate, give that child to me. I will not refuse any child. I will give a home, or find loving parents for him or for her. Weare fighting abortion by adoption and have given thousands of

children to caring families. And it is so beautiful to see the love and unity that a child brings to a family.

"The child is the most beautiful gift of God to a family, to a nation. Let us never refuse this gift of God. My prayer for each one of you is that you may always have the faith to see and love God in each person including the unborn. God bless you."

God bless,

flowery

+JMJ

[dairygirl4u2c]

It is moronic to say that choice is above human life.

The opposition has been listened to, they refuse to listen to the facts... that is moronic.

This goes back a few months, you're coming into this in the middle of an ongoing dialog, so you do not see the full picture, let her answer.

You are clueless to the facts of why I wrote what I wrote. I have not belittled anyone, their own words have belittled them.

Ironmonk monks own words belittles him. He refuses to listen to the facts.. that is moronic. I have said freedom is above understandably disputed human life. The baby is not a human just because of a majority vote. So the question is who decides? Why not mother since if the baby is not a person, it part of the mother.

I am somewhat bias though. I think it is wrong to kill babies pre-first trimester, but I don't think it is murder. I agree with the Catholic Church back in the day and many theologians now that say that the baby doesn't get a soul until later. I'm not even sure what the CC teaches now. They say that it is murder, yet many of its own theologians don't think the early baby has a soul. So what exactly is murder?

And if smea doesn't think abortion is going to go anywhere because of people with my mentality, I don't see why he can't vote for who he wants. Many politicans like to use the abortion ticket as a means to get votes. If the Republican party is representative of the citizens, most probably claim to be pro-life personally but don't want to enforce it on others... they just claim to be pro-life and leave it at that. Anyway bottom line. If smea thinks something's gonna get done elsewhere and nothing in abortion, why must he base his vote on abortion?

Edited February 26, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[cmotherofpirl]

Dairy:

A baby is a human because it is not anything else.

If a mother has the right to decide if a baby is "human", then I have the right to decide I can own slaves. If one person has the right to decide the "humanity" of another, then we all do.

The Catholic Church teaches a child recieves a soul at conception.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I will not deny a mother her right to decide if she thinks a baby is human or not just because of someone's faith.

I concede that in this philosophical context, you are being denied your right to have a slave. If you want to say you have the right to decide who is human and who is not, fine.

But don't expect me to back you up because I don't think it's understandable for you to think a slave is not a person like I think it is understandable for a mother to think a baby is not a person.

Edited February 26, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[IcePrincessKRS]

Exactly how is a baby NOT a person? :angry:

[PhatPhred]

The Catholic Church teaches a child recieves a soul at conception.

As Catholics, we are allowed to believe that a child receives a soul (or souls in the case of future multiple births) at conception, but we are not required to believe that this is when ensoulment occurs.