On The Blessed Mother's Sinlessness

[ReformationNow]

Seems a bit of a stretch to me.

[cmotherofpirl]

REmember that nothing impure can enter heaven.

So how could something impure be the Mother of God?

THat seems a real stretch to me.

[ReformationNow]

REmember that nothing impure can enter heaven.

So how could something impure be the Mother of God?

THat seems a real stretch to me.

So were Enoch and Elijah sinless?

[Jake Huether]

Not while they were on earth. But - if you remember, they did not enter heaven untill Jesus was raised from the dead! So, they spent quite some time BECOMING sinless and pure.

I think it all boils down to the Authority of the Church. If the Church has held the Tradition (sacred Tradition - not man made) that the Mother of God was sinless, then it isn't an issue of whether or not the Bible says she was or wasn't, it's an issue of whether or not the Church can say she was.

Can it?

Isn't the Church, "the piller and foundation of Truth!"

Wasn't Peter given the keys to the kindom. Whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven!

If you accept that Christ gave Authority to His Church, then all other things just fall into place.

Look, the most you can do is show that Mary "might" have had sin. You cannot prove she sinned. We may not be able to prove that she didn't. But since the Church says she didn't, then we know for sure that she didn't.

You see, it's issues like this that make it sooooo clear to me that sola scriptura isn't legit. Would Christ leave us a Bible to try and "interpret". Or would He leave us a Church to interpret it for us?

[cmotherofpirl]

THe gates of heaven were not open until Jesus opened them. They would have been in th bosum of Abraham along with all the OT people waiting for the resurrection.

[ReformationNow]

Not while they were on earth.  But - if you remember, they did not enter heaven untill Jesus was raised from the dead!  So, they spent quite some time BECOMING sinless and pure.

I think it all boils down to the Authority of the Church.  If the Church has held the Tradition (sacred Tradition - not man made) that the Mother of God was sinless, then it isn't an issue of whether or not the Bible says she was or wasn't, it's an issue of whether or not the Church can say she was. 

Can it? 

Isn't the Church, "the piller and foundation of Truth!"

Wasn't Peter given the keys to the kindom.  Whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven!

If you accept that Christ gave Authority to His Church, then all other things just fall into place.

Look, the most you can do is show that Mary "might" have had sin.  You cannot prove she sinned.  We may not be able to prove that she didn't.  But since the Church says she didn't, then we know for sure that she didn't.

You see, it's issues like this that make it sooooo clear to me that sola scriptura isn't legit.  Would Christ leave us a Bible to try and "interpret".  Or would He leave us a Church to interpret it for us?

A burden of proof lies upon those who make a claim. The Catholic Church claims that Mary was sinless. Scripturally, there is no basis for this. It is the responsibility of the Catholic Church to prove any claims she makes.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe Church Fathers say Mary was sinless, therefore she was.

[ReformationNow]

THe gates of heaven were not open until Jesus opened them. They would have been in th bosum of Abraham along with all the OT people waiting for the resurrection.

2 Kings 2:11 "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

[cmotherofpirl]

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Heaven

This subject will be treated under seven headings:

I. Name and Place of Heaven;

II. Existence of Heaven;

III. Supernatural Character of Heaven and the Beatific Vision;

IV. Eternity of Heaven and Impeccability of the Blessed;

V. Essential Beatitude;

VI. Accidental Beatitude;

VII. Attributes of Beatitude.

I. NAME AND PLACE OF HEAVEN

The Name of Heaven

Heaven (Anglo-Saxon heofon, O.S. hevan and himil, originally himin) corresponds to the Gothic himin-s. Both heaven and himil are formed from himin by a regular change of consonants: heaven, by changing m before n into v; and himil, by changing n of the unaccented ending into l. Some derive heaven from the root ham, "to cover" (cf. the Gothic ham-ôn and the German Hem-d). According to this derivation heaven would be conceived as the roof of the world. Others trace a connection between himin (heaven) and home; according to this view, which seems to be the more probable, heaven would be the abode of the Godhead. The Latin coelum (koilon, a vault) is derived by many from the root of celare "to cover, to conceal" (coelum, "ceiling" "roof of the world"). Others, however think it is connected with the Germanic himin. The Greek ouranos is probably derived from the root var, which also connotes the idea of covering. The Hebrew name for heaven is thought to be derived from a word meaning "on high"; accordingly, heaven would designate the upper region of the world.

In the Holy Bible the term heaven denotes, in the first place, the blue firmament, or the region of the clouds that pass along the sky. Gen., i, 20, speaks of the birds "under the firmament of heaven". In other passages it denotes the region of the stars that shine in the sky. Furthermore heaven is spoken of as the dwelling of God; for, although God is omnipresent, He manifests Himself in a special manner in the light and grandeur of the firmament. Heaven also is the abode of the angels; for they are constantly with God and see His face. With God in heaven are likewise the souls of the just (II Cor. 5:1; Matt., v, 3, 12). In Eph., iv, 8 sq., we are told that Christ conducted to heaven the patriarchs who had been in limbo (limbus patrum). Thus the term heaven has come to designate both the happiness and the abode of just in the next life. The present article treats as heaven in this sense only. In Holy Scripture it is called:

the kingdom of heaven (Matt., v, 3),

the kingdom of God (Mark, ix, 46),

the kingdom of the Father (Matt., xiii, 43),

the kingdom of Christ (Luke, xxii, 30),

the house of the Father (John, xiv, 2),

city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebr., xii),

the holy place (Hebr., ix, 12; D. V. holies),

paradise (II Cor., xii, 4),

life (Matt., vii, 14),

life everlasting (Matt., xix, 16),

the joy of the Lord (Matthew 25:21),

crown of life (James, i, 12),

crown of justice (II Timothy iv, 8),

crown of glory (I Peter, v, 4),

incorrup crown (I Cor., ix, 25),

great reward (Matthew 5:12),

inheritance of Christ (Eph., i, 18),

eternal inheritance (Hebr., ix, 15).

The Location of Heaven

Where is heaven, the dwelling of God and the blessed?

Some are of opinion that heaven is everywhere, as God is everywhere. According to this view the blessed can move about freely in every part of the universe, and still remain with God and see everywhere. Everywhere, too, they remain with Christ (in His sacred Humanity) and with the saints and the angels. For, according to the advocates of this opinion, the spatial distances of this world must no longer impede the mutual intercourse of blessed.

In general, however, theologians deem more appropriate that there should be a special and glorious abode, in which the blessed have their peculiar home and where they usually abide, even though they be free to go about in this world. For the surroundings in the midst of which the blessed have their dwelling must be in accordance with their happy state; and the internal union of charity which joins them in affection must find its outward expression in community of habitation. At the end of the world, the earth together with the celestial bodies will be gloriously transformed into a part of the dwelling-place of the blessed (Apoc., xxi). Hence there seems to be no sufficient reason for attributing a metaphorical sense to those numerous utterances of the Bible which suggest a definite dwelling-place of the blessed. Theologians, therefore, generally hold that the beaven of the blessed is a special place with definite limits. Naturally, this place is held to exist, not within the earth, but, in accordance with the expressions of Scripture, without and beyond its limits. All further details regarding its locality are quite uncertain. The Church has decided nothing on this subject.

[mustbenothing]

(musturde) Could I please have some proof that the Blessed Mother was sinless, maybe a Bible verse or anything.

(Me) Romans 3:10-12

10 as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;

11 no one understands;

no one seeks for God.

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;

no one does good,

not even one."

Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 5:12

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned

(Jake Huether) I also thought that "ALL Israel would be saved"?

(Me) They will. Paul explains in Romans 9 that the certain salvation of Israel is the certain salvation of the spiritual Israel -- that is, the elect. He explains in Romans 11 that the nation of Israel will ultimately receive covenantal blessings in a far-off revival.

(Jake Huether) So will "ALL" Israelites be saved?

(Me) No. In Romans 9, Paul has in mind the individuals within the spiritual Israel. In Romans 11, Paul has in mind the corporate body of the nation of Israel.

(IXpenguin21) Luke 1:28 -

And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

what reason on Earth would an Angel, a being who is purly soul, purly worshiping God in His kingdom, have to "Hail" a sinful humanbeing? then go on and say that they are "favored" and that "The Lord is with you"? where has there ever been a situation where man has found favor with God after the fall of man? after origional sin? here is where we start to see just what Mary is all about, and just what she's not about; sin.

(Me) Someone has favor with God, so that person must be sinless, even lacking original sin? All sorts of people in the Bible find favor with God (e.g., Noah, Abraham, Abel), but I don't see you claiming that any of them were sinless

(IXpenguin21) Genesis 3:15 - I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."

God is speaking to satan in this passage and says that He will keep the woman from satan, which must mean she will always be in a state of grace, which means she is without sin.

(Me) He says that He will have the woman's (Eve's) offspring (that is, the representational forces of God, consummated in Christ) defeat the offspring of the serpent (that is, Satan and his servants/minions. Nowhere does this say that He will keep Mary from being guilty of sin!

(IXpenguin21) luke 1:41-42

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,

cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.

sooo... the Holy Spirit of God anounces this through His servant, elizabeth. Mary and Jesus (the fruit of her womb) are both put under the same heading as "Blessed". infact, mary is said to be MOST blessed out of all women! not just the women then, because God has no time. mary is most blessed out of ALL women ever!

(Me) Peter says that many Christians are "blessed":

1 Peter 4:14

If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

Clearly not all of these people were born without original sin.

(Jake Huether) Greatness doesn't imply sinlessness. Being FULL of Grace does.

(Me) Would that include Stephen?

Acts 6:8

And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people.

[Chrysologus]

Does Paul's condemnation of all humanity as sinful include Jesus? How about little children incapable of actual sin?

[musturde]

MustBeNothing I asked proof that she was sinless, not proof that she was a sinner.

[ReformationNow]

MustBeNothing I asked proof that she was sinless, not proof that she was a sinner.

In order for there to be proof she was sinless, God Himself would have to tell us through scripture. Nothing less than that is definitive proof. The fact is, scripture is entirely silent on this. However, scripture tells us over and over that all mankind are sinners.

[cmotherofpirl]

Scripture itself tells us everything is not in it.

Scripture itself never claims to be the end all and be all of revelation.

Therefore your theory is untenable.

[Jake Huether]

A burden of proof lies upon those who make a claim. The Catholic Church claims that Mary was sinless. Scripturally, there is no basis for this. It is the responsibility of the Catholic Church to prove any claims she makes.

Oh my! Why is the burden of proof on the Catholic Church. It was the Protestants who claimed she was NOT sinless. Likewise, Scripturally, there is no basis for this.

Therefore, I say, it is the responsibility of the Protestants to prove any claims it makes.

See what I mean! We've "proven our case" and you've "proven your case", but in the end we are where we started!

That is EXACTLY why there are a zillion and counting protestant churches! Because each one has their own meaning, and although they believe the Bible can "prove" their beliefe, it mysteriously has the ability to "prove" to others the exact opposite and all possibilities inbetween!

That is why Christ would not have left us alone with just a book. Isn't that proof enough. Would Christ want his Church divided? St. Paul must have not known, when he pleaded that we all be one, with ONE FAITH, and ONE BELIEF.