Ewtn Hosts

[Apotheoun]

Whenever I hear the music used in the Roman Church’s liturgy, I thank God I'm Byzantine.

[jeffpugh]

Must be nice. Where can I go to switch traditions?

/sarcasm (at the moment, though I haven't given up on the west yet)

[jiyoung]

As a minority and a child of immigrants I have some opinions on this...but with the disclaimer that I haven't seen the Mass, I've only heard about it and read about it. (I think watching it might be painful...)

I really hate (don't hate, appreciate) being pandered to. Do we have to keep harping on the fact that I'm so different? Yes, I have my own culture and my own language, but do we need to keep talking about that? It feel patronizing and condescending. As long as you're not trying to eliminate my culture, I'm happy. I feel like this whole multiculturalism in the liturgy thing is going right back to the tower of Babel.

No matter how different we all are, when we enter into the liturgy we're all the same--children of God, saved by the Paschal Mystery which is the MAIN FOCUS of the liturgy--it's not about us! But liturgy has become this self-absorbed thing. The multiculturalism in the liturgy is a celebration of ourselves--what on earth does it have to do with the Mass? I can understand ethnic music and stuff in their respective groups, but not in a mixed crowd.

Also--merengue? Is the Mass suddenly a dance party? I mean, come ON...within reason, at least! Must there be a mariachi band or whatever? Would it be okay if some people came out with turntables and rapped during the Mass--after all, that's a huge sector of American culture too, right? Where does it end?

[Alycin]

I live in Texas, so maybe I'm just blind to the illegal immigrant thing cause I'm so immersed in it, but I personally don't feel like anyone is forcing anything down my throat.

*shrugs*

To be fair, I am a "bleeding heart" or at least get accused of being such. I want to help everyone all the time. lol...

[puellapaschalis]

I wonder - and this may be a thread drift - what effect a country's immigration policy should have on the Church's attitude to the local population. If (and I'm picking numbers out of the air here) a town has, say, a Hispanic population of 20%, but only 5% are legal, should pastoral provision for that population be reckoned on the basis of the 5% or the 20%? 20% may be large enough to arrange a Spanish-speaking priest, but is 5%? Should a priest visit the other 15%? Should the parish website have a section in Spanish - is it worth it for 5%? For 20%?

This is, of course, separate from the Mass, which isn't pastoral and where multiculturalism has no place beyond making sure that the readings are (also) given in the vernacular (imho).

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1503930' date='Apr 20 2008, 03:34 AM']I live in Texas, so maybe I'm just blind to the illegal immigrant thing cause I'm so immersed in it, but I personally don't feel like anyone is forcing anything down my throat.

*shrugs*

To be fair, I am a "bleeding heart" or at least get accused of being such. I want to help everyone all the time. lol...[/quote]

And I want to help them, too. But not this way. Help needs to be organized and moderated. It can't be random and un-checked.

Also, just because you don't feel that the illegal alien situation is being forced down your throat, that doesn't change the fact that millions of other Americans feel differently.

AND, Hispanics aren't the only ones who need help. Despite what others may think America is not made of money. We don't have money trees growing in huge money groves and we can just go any time and pick off some money fruit. The enormous--and I mean ENORMOUS--amount of money that illegal aliens are costing our country can be used to help our LEGAL immigrants and our refugees. It is simply unjust and unfair that so much is being spent on this one part of the population...a population that has no legal right to be here, that has no legal right to our taxpayer dollars, that has no legal right to the services that are a BENEFIT of being a legal resident of our nation...in the first place. Bleeding hearts LOVE to talk about social justice but they seem to not pick up on this aspect of the immigration poblem.

The illegal alien population has already nearly bankrupted numerous hospitals across the country. Here in the DC/MD/VA area we have at least a dozen hospitals that are literally struggling to stay alive. And we have a massive illegal alien population out here. So you see, you can connect the dots all over the country: where there are illegal alien populations, there are hospitals gasping for air. They use our ERs as regular doctors visits. And they come cross our borders to have their babies, costing hospitals a minimum of $10,000 per baby to be born. I sincerely don't think the average American...especially (sorry, Alycin) the bleeding hearts...has grasped this yet, the incredible toll illegals aliens are taking on our economic situation and the UNFAIR BURDEN of paying for these FREE services that is placed on the American taxpayer who did not ask for this responsibility. The American taxpayer has a right to say "STOP".

And then, yet again, there is that annoying little detail that folks just seem to have a hard time remembering: THE LAW. We have immigration laws and they should be enforced and followed. For our safety. The laws are there for a reason. We have 10-20 illegal aliens in the USA and we don't know who they are or what their backgrounds are or why they are REALLY here. We don't know what (or if) diseases they could be carrying. We have no access to their criminal records, no fingerprints, nothing. The bleeding hearts childishly assume that every single alien is here "just to work and feed their family". Oh, give me a break. Simple common sense dictates otherwise. If you are a serial rapist, a thief, a pedophile, a gang banger, a drug runner, a wife abuser...and you had the opportunity to escape the law in your country by crossing the border of your neighbor, never to be see again (and with multiple chances to commit more crimes undetected), you would do it. And many of them do. We know this because they are sitting in our prisons, yet again on the taxpayers' dime. So, we have untold illegal aliens that are like phantoms: We know they are there but we have no proof of them. This is a dangerous risk to the health and security of the American people.

See, Alycin, this is a much bigger problem than just "taking care of people". And...I'm sure you know...we can't take care of EVERYONE.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Scofizzle' post='1502697' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:57 PM']being that the Mass is only 1 of 2 masses he will be saying and His Holinesses trip is to America. Shouldn't the entire Mass have been said in English. Is America the only place where people make a big deal multiculturalism.[/quote]

Unless you're a full-blooded Native American, you got that dirty, no good immigrant blood in ya.

Us Catholics should keep in mind that without this wave of Hispanic immigration, American Catholicism truly would be dying out. If you think we've closed a lot of parishes already, imagine closing another 50% of them. That would be the Church without immigrants.

Edited April 20, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Deb]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1503568' date='Apr 19 2008, 07:10 PM']I'm not exactly sure what you mean becuase you didn't use any examples and you didn't ask me a specific question. So I'm not sure...

But I will say that I am ALL FOR MULTICULTURISM both in the USA and in the Church. This is one of the things I love so much about my country--and am proud of my country for--is that America is without a doubt the most diverse nation on the planet. This does bring difficulties and challenges but when dealt with in fairness and equality, it can work out.

My issue is when one ethnic/religious/cultural group is singled out for more attention, catering to, and importance than all the others. I'm speaking of Hispanics and the people who perpetuate and encourage this special attention at the expense of all the others. The Papal Mass, with its rampant use of Spanish language, is a perfect example.

It is especially insulting to me because if our immigration laws were respected (by those coming into our country) and upheld (by our own government) we would not have 10-20 million illegal aliens residing here, getting a free ride, and forcing their language and culture on the rest of us. And by "us" I mean all citizens of the United States--those born here and those naturalized here, as well as those here for legal purposes such as with work or student visas. If we did not have this atrocious open borders situation, the levels of immigrants to the U.S. would be balanced, creating more equality, opportunies, and chances for success for all.

I'm not even going to get into the added issue of illegal aliens sucking our healthcare system dry, or the fact that millions of illegal Mexicans are using the U.S. to stimulate the Mexican economy while the Mexican government refuses to take care of its own citizens, and while the president of Mexico repeatedly insults Americans and the American government by calling us racists and bigots because we have the very audacity to want to protect the borders of our sovereign nation.[/quote]


[b]Leviticus 19:33-35 )[/b]
When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity.

[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=10&verse=19&version=49&context=verse"][b]Deuteronomy 10:19[/b][/url]
" So show your love for the alien, for you were [b]aliens[/b] in the land of Egypt.
[url="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=24&verse=14&version=49&context=verse"][b]Deuteronomy 24:14[/b][/url]
" You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your [b]aliens[/b] who is in your land in your towns.


The world was created by God for all men. Boundaries were placed by men. We are to love the Lord our God with all our heart and all our soul and all our mind and love our neighbor as ourselves. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and Prophets.
Life is very short and worrying about who might be eating a piece of your pie is wasted energy. All focus should be on worshiping the Lord, trying to transform to be more like Christ and looking forward, with hope, to the life after this one. Ours is like a blink of an eye.

So, changing the subject. I watched the Pope at ground zero on EWTN. Of course it did not start at 8:00 but about 40 minutes later. I had to turn the volume off until the Pope arrived because the hosts were such idiots. Their incessant useless banter was painful.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1503953' date='Apr 20 2008, 05:27 AM']Unless you're a full-blooded Native American, you got that dirty, no good immigrant blood in ya.

Us Catholics should keep in mind that without this wave of Hispanic immigration, American Catholicism truly would be dying out. If you think we've closed a lot of parishes already, imagine closing another 50% of them. That would be the Church without immigrants.[/quote]


Please. Do you really think these law-breakers are importing Catholicism...along with their out-of-wedlock anchor babies?

And did you know that stats show that 1/3 of all Hispanics convert to evangelical protestant churches within 10 years of being in the U.S.? Those are stats collected by Catholic organizations, not secular ones.

Not all Catholic immigrants are Hispanic. Look at the Filipinos and Koreans and Africans. I sort of resent the suggestion that our Church needs Hispanics to stay afloat. The other immigrant Catholic groups combined foster a far more authentic and deeper Catholicism that Hispanics do, they whilst breaking our immigration laws and using our hospitals to have their anchor babies in that they can't pay for, and forcing their Spanish on us.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Deb' post='1504051' date='Apr 20 2008, 09:45 AM']When a stranger...[/quote]


Whatever.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1504211' date='Apr 20 2008, 11:53 AM']The other immigrant Catholic groups combined foster a far more authentic and deeper Catholicism that Hispanics do.......[/quote]

well. thank goodness us catholics have you as our gauge to determine 'far more authentic and deeper Catholicism'.

The grace and charity with which you spew your opinions rivals a 3-legged pregnant yak with a hairball and hip-dysplasia.

Stop looking for a theology to fit your politcal ideology. It really should be the other way around.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1504254' date='Apr 20 2008, 01:44 PM']well.[/quote]

Whatever.

It's easier to call names and hurl insults than to engage in a discussion about the things you don't agree with, isn't it?

Children operate that way, too, so it's not really a foreign concept.

You might want to think about monitoring your own displays of "grace and charity" (or lack thereof) before you go accusing someone else of the same thing.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1504355' date='Apr 20 2008, 01:56 PM']Whatever.[/quote]

[Galloglasses]

Look, Mkolbe is just worried that the influx of immigration will screw up America even further.

Like back when the Irish were flocking to America due to the famine, people weren't just hating them because they were Papists, but also because they were afraid of the effects a sudden mass influx of an ethnic/religious group would have on the country, which is a genuine fear.

Multiculturalism is not essentially a good thing, it can lead to a death of all cultures involved.


Just look at Britain, what a mess.

[BG45]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1504355' date='Apr 20 2008, 04:56 PM']Whatever.

It's easier to call names and hurl insults than to engage in a discussion about the things you don't agree with, isn't it?

Children operate that way, too, so it's not really a foreign concept.

You might want to think about monitoring your own displays of "grace and charity" (or lack thereof) before you go accusing someone else of the same thing.[/quote]

Perhaps you need to take a look at the log in your eye. Just my two cents after reading you cast off the Word of God and of men alike.