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[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1502977' date='Apr 18 2008, 08:54 PM']Actually there is no official language in the US. There are problems everytime someone suggests that there should be.[/quote]

this is true

[-I---Love]

I was at the Mass.

Because of the Pope there, etc. it was amazing. And becaue it was the Mass which is always so.

But liturgically wise it was poor. Liturgists called that as soon as the music was released for DC (however St. Patricks tomorrow is suppose to be not far from great as far as music chosen).

My reaction was that there was too many different languages and too much Spanish, which the Pope - the main celebrant, isn't even fluent in to be clear. There was ONE verse of a 4 verse song during the Pre-lude before Mass that was in German which the Pope was not even out on the field yet and hence may not have even heard.

Let me detail the following non-English/Latin occurences:

Prelude -
Let'Isikia, Traditional Zulu/S. African

Procession Bishops -
You Danzo Como David, Traditional Merengue

Source d'Ea Vive

Arrival Pope -

3rd vs. of Holy God, We Praise Thy Name sung in German

Pre Mass Interlude -

Uyai Mose, Zimbabwe

First Reading - read only in Spanish but printed in English too

Second Reading I think was read in English, can't quite remember

Prayer of faithful response was "Lord Hear Our Prayer," then in latin, then in Spanish EACH time. The petitions were read in English, Tagalong, Korean, Vietnamese, Igbo, and Spanish.

Preparation Gifts -

Ven Espiritu Santo

Communion Hymns -

Bienaventurados

I would like to note that after Communion Placido Domingo sang the Panis Angelicus and it was beautiful. He was the only person I noticed that knelt on his knee and kissed the Pope's ring.

There were Spanish speaking people to be sure at the Mass, but I would estimate that the vast majority understand English very well.

Who they hect speaks Tagalong or Igbo, please inform me if it was necessary?!

Someone do my work for me and tell me where the guideline is that only one language is to be employed at Mass (aside from Latin which may always be included for obvious reasons) unless there is a certain specific unusual reason why the Mass should be celebrated in dual-languages. I can't remember where I read it, but it exists! Yes, the Pope here is an exceptional occasion. But he didn't necessitate different languages and neither did the people there. Multi-languages are to be employed when the main celebrant and concelebrating Priests together know the two. I think this whole way of mixing languages at Mass (common at WYD's) is excessive.

There is an unhealthy multi-culturalism notion that this at least borders on.

I didn't find the music particularly reverent. Nor do I believe this is what the Pope has in mind for liturgy. In fact he sent one of his guys to DC and NY months ago to ensure that with the stadium type Mass there wouldn't be abuses. He has been concerned about the same thing for WYD's but a solution is not clear; he has stated he does not believe that such grand scale Masses are what JC had in mind.

John Kerry received communion and someone else who shouldn't have, while Kennedy respectfully did not. The former should not have occured at a Papal Mass of all Masses. Something is seriously distorted for this to happen.

Multiculturalism in the Mass is different than some prayer service.

Btw, Sacred Music Man, English is not the official language, technically there isn't one, although works are in progress for English to become so.

I missed the EWTN remarks, although hope to catch a rerun, and from what I heard they said I agree with their reaction; indeed it seems to have been mine.

[JP2Iloveyou]

I only caught the Mass on T.V. from the Eucharistic prayer onward, and it seemed OK to me. However, I agree with the comments that have been said regarding mulitculturalism and the use of different languages. I would like to see the opinion of an expert, however, because, with all due respect to those who have opined, I don't believe that any of you are liturgical experts. If you are, my apologies. However, lacking the opinion of an expert, I think that the use of languages other than English is a problem on a couple of fronts. First, it is very distracting, I think, to be in prayer at Mass and then have to stop to follow along in a Missal for the translation. Second, while it is true that there is no official language in the United States, English is without a doubt the unofficial language. If you cannot speak English in this country, you are at a major disadvantage in every facet of life. Now, obviously, Mass is not the place to try and raise people's lot in life, but by discouraging the learning of English, we are not helping. Third, if you want to get technical, there are thousands of languages spoken in the United States. Why is Spanish favored over Vietnamese, Korean, Swahili, Italian, or any other for that matter? I am from a town of only 10,000 people are there were FOURTEEN native languages spoken in our local high school last year. I can't imagine how many there would be in New York City or Washington.

The problem with my view is that it is deemed to be racist in tone. However, anyone who knows me, knows that I am most certainly not a racist. I have worked intensly with Hispanic immigrants to our country. I have a number of Hispanic coworkers right now that I am good friends with. I have lived in Mexico and I am semi-fluent in Spanish. However, at the end of the day, I also think that we must maintain some semblance of that which is American culture. Because our country IS so diverse, we need something to hold us together and that something, in my opinion, is the English language.

That being said, I do understand that many people do not speak English and they should be able to worship in their native languages, in order to foster their spiritual growth. St. Paul became all things to all men so that he might save at least some. We must do the same. If that means evangelizing in Spanish, so be it. Winning a soul for Christ is far more important than the language used to accomplish that goal. So, I have no problem with Spanish Masses, Vietnamese Masses, German Masses, whatever. At the end of the day though, we must encourage our neighbors to learn English so that eventually, we will all be able to worship together as one Catholic family.

The solution of Latin is intriguing. As someone who hopes one day to serve as a priest, I have no problem with using Latin in the Mass. It's a problem of how do you please everybody though. If you use Latin, people will be upset. If you don't use it, people will be upset. If you use just English, people are upset, if you use a variety of languages, people are upset. Ultimately, you just can't win. The solution, I think, is a renewed catechesis on the liturgy. As I see it, there are two polar opposite attitudes at work. One tries to ram the rules down people's throats. It is often times uncharitable and very legalistic, for example, insisting on the use of Latin when we all know darn well that the VAST majority of people have no idea how to even pronounce Latin, let alone understand it. The other attitude tries to dumb everything down and thinks of the laity as idiots. The basic premise at work here is, "They're just to dumb to be able to understand Latin anyway, so why try to teach them?" The laity can't really understand the distinction between ordinary and extraordinary ministers, so why explain it.

Both of these views are wrong. The solution is a renewed catechesis focusing on the liturgy. We can't just get up and say, "Beginning this Sunday, we will no longer be holding hands at the Our Father." We have to take conscientious steps to explain WHY hand holding is contrary to the liturgical norm and thus the mind of the Church. This will take time; it won't happen overnight. But since the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, and our celebration of the Eucharist in community, the "coming togethr for the prayers and the breaking of the bread," especially on Sunday, is the time when the Church is most visible, we must catechize on this as well as on other aspects of our faith.

And that my two cents.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1502988' date='Apr 19 2008, 03:24 AM']Who they hect speaks Tagalong or Igbo, please inform me if it was necessary?![/quote]
I think Tagalog is spoken in the Philippines. I just looked up Igbo, and it's spoken in Nigeria.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1502988' date='Apr 18 2008, 09:24 PM']Who they hect speaks Tagalong or Igbo, please inform me if it was necessary?![/quote]


It's TAGALOG, not TagaLONG. And it's the primary language of the Philipines. Lots of Filipinos in the U.S. especially in the DC/MD/VA area. Yes, it was necessary. Remember, the Mass was organized by the Archdiocese of Washington, so those 6 languages we heard at the reading of the intentions were representative of the immigrant Catholic peoples in the DC/MD/VA area. That's why it was those particular 6 languages. We have a lot of Koreans, Nigerians, Vietnamese, Filipinos and Hispanics (what was the 6th? I forgot...).

Edited April 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1502977' date='Apr 18 2008, 08:54 PM']Actually there is no official language in the US. There are problems everytime someone suggests that there should be.[/quote]

Right, because we never needed to establish English as the official language of the U.S. It was just OBVIOUS. It would be like the Japanese having to make an official declaration that their national language is Japanese. Well, what else would it be?! Actually, as an aside...I do believe that Japan has an official declaration of their national language. Basically they did it out of national pride. They didn't really have to. But that's what countries do when they are proud of their culture and heritage. Not so with America. We have to act embarassed over every beaver dam thing we try to do for our country. And we have to apologize for everything and kow-tow to special interest groups and endure the abuse of being called imperialist and racist. It's shameful.

[puellapaschalis]

Mme. Vengier,

I read your posts in this thread and see two big themes, distinct in themselves but you merge them quite a bit. The first is the issue of what multiculturalism means in the Church; the second is what multiculturalism means in the USA, and specifically how you feel about it. It comes across quite strongly and I wonder if your strong feelings on the one are affecting what you say about the other. I'm not from the USA so perhaps it stands out to me a bit more.

Oh, and yes, Tagalog is the/a primary language in the Philippines. There's a whole bunch of Filipinos on the West Coast of the USA. Mass in Tagalog is wild (points proudly to her Tagalog Missal....sigh, everyone's got to have a hobby).

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1503372' date='Apr 19 2008, 12:40 PM']Mme. Vengier,

I read your posts in this thread and see two big themes, distinct in themselves but you merge them quite a bit. The first is the issue of what multiculturalism means in the Church; the second is what multiculturalism means in the USA, and specifically how you feel about it. It comes across quite strongly and I wonder if your strong feelings on the one are affecting what you say about the other. I'm not from the USA so perhaps it stands out to me a bit more.[/quote]


I'm not exactly sure what you mean becuase you didn't use any examples and you didn't ask me a specific question. So I'm not sure...

But I will say that I am ALL FOR MULTICULTURISM both in the USA and in the Church. This is one of the things I love so much about my country--and am proud of my country for--is that America is without a doubt the most diverse nation on the planet. This does bring difficulties and challenges but when dealt with in fairness and equality, it can work out.

My issue is when one ethnic/religious/cultural group is singled out for more attention, catering to, and importance than all the others. I'm speaking of Hispanics and the people who perpetuate and encourage this special attention at the expense of all the others. The Papal Mass, with its rampant use of Spanish language, is a perfect example.

It is especially insulting to me because if our immigration laws were respected (by those coming into our country) and upheld (by our own government) we would not have 10-20 million illegal aliens residing here, getting a free ride, and forcing their language and culture on the rest of us. And by "us" I mean all citizens of the United States--those born here and those naturalized here, as well as those here for legal purposes such as with work or student visas. If we did not have this atrocious open borders situation, the levels of immigrants to the U.S. would be balanced, creating more equality, opportunies, and chances for success for all.

I'm not even going to get into the added issue of illegal aliens sucking our healthcare system dry, or the fact that millions of illegal Mexicans are using the U.S. to stimulate the Mexican economy while the Mexican government refuses to take care of its own citizens, and while the president of Mexico repeatedly insults Americans and the American government by calling us racists and bigots because we have the very audacity to want to protect the borders of our sovereign nation.

[Madame Vengier]

P.S. Puella

I finished up high school in an area of Maryland where (at the time) Filipinos comprised the largest minority. I had many Filipina girlfriends (and secretly fawned over some of their VERY gorgeous elder brothers) and our parish had loads of Filipinos (who had their own Mass, though I never attended in Tagalog). I used to love the church bazaars because all the Filipinos would bring their to-die-for home cooking. They are incredibly warm and vibrant people, and also very traditional Catholics. Filipinos in America contribute greatly to the American landscape. One of my favorite journalist bloggers is Filipina-American...Michelle Malkin. Familiar with her? She's a firecracker!

www.michellemalkin.com

[puellapaschalis]

Yes, I've come across her blog before. She certainly doesn't mince her words!

My comments were really just that - comments. As someone who's not from the USA it was simply something that came across very forcefully in your posts, more than others'.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1503580' date='Apr 19 2008, 06:41 PM']Yes, I've come across her blog before. She certainly doesn't mince her words!

My comments were really just that - comments. As someone who's not from the USA it was simply something that came across very forcefully in your posts, more than others'.[/quote]

It may just be that I'm more forceful than others. This would be the case regardless of the topic.

I do know that many people feel the way I do about the aforementioned topic.

[Apotheoun]

I find multiculturalism itself to be boring.

[Mercy me]

Personally I think the problem with "multiculturalism" is that it focuses on differences and ignores commonalities. In a way it seems to tie into relativism.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1503629' date='Apr 19 2008, 06:36 PM']Personally I think the problem with "multiculturalism" is that it focuses on differences and ignores commonalities. In a way it seems to tie into relativism.[/quote]
Another problem with multiculturalism in liturgical worship is that it is too heavily focused upon mankind. It borders on idolatry in my opinion.

[KnightofChrist]

Fr. Z's opinion on the DC mass...

[url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/04/blogs-i-look-at-react-to-the-washington-dc-mass/"]http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/04/blogs-i-loo...ington-dc-mass/[/url]