doe-jo Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1502740' date='Apr 18 2008, 01:55 PM']If only the Church had a common Liturgical language with which to express our unity past present and future in addition to our unity throughout the world...oh wait.[/quote] there you go... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1502740' date='Apr 18 2008, 04:55 PM']If only the Church had a common Liturgical language with which to express our unity past present and future in addition to our unity throughout the world...oh wait.[/quote] NICE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 I was just wondering where it's laid out how much is too much. Doesn't Sacrosanctum Concilium encourage elements of culture into the Mass? peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1502893' date='Apr 18 2008, 06:13 PM']I was just wondering where it's laid out how much is too much. Doesn't Sacrosanctum Concilium encourage elements of culture into the Mass? peace[/quote] Does it allow for the complete over emphasis of culture at Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 (edited) dunno, that's why I was asking if there were guidelines as to how much is too much. The only passages I have on hand at this second are: Sacrosanctum Concilium # 37: “… (the Church) cultivates and encourages the gifts and endowments of mind and heart possessed by various races and peoples… Indeed, it sometimes allows them into the liturgy itself, provided they are consistent with the thinking behind the true spirit of the liturgy." Sacrosanctum Concilium # 40.1: “The competent local Church authority should carefully and conscientiously consider, in this regard, which elements from the traditions and particular talents of individual peoples can be brought into divine worship. Adaptations which are adjudged useful or necessary should be proposed to the apostolic see, and introduced with its consent.” It just says its allowed and encouraged, I haven't read the whole document in awhile (though I'm planning to shortly) so I don't know if there is any limitations placed on it. Edited April 18, 2008 by goldenchild17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1502900' date='Apr 18 2008, 06:18 PM']dunno, that's why I was asking if there were guidelines as to how much is too much. The only passages I have on hand at this second are: Sacrosanctum Concilium # 37: “… (the Church) cultivates and encourages the gifts and endowments of mind and heart possessed by various races and peoples… Indeed, it sometimes allows them into the liturgy itself, provided they are consistent with the thinking behind the true spirit of the liturgy." Sacrosanctum Concilium # 40.1: “The competent local Church authority should carefully and conscientiously consider, in this regard, which elements from the traditions and particular talents of individual peoples can be brought into divine worship. Adaptations which are adjudged useful or necessary should be proposed to the apostolic see, and introduced with its consent.” It just says its allowed, I haven't read the whole document in awhile (though I'm planning too shortly) so I don't know if there is any limitations placed on it.[/quote] I'm pretty sure that means if the majority are one ethnicity or another. I know sometimes at Mass here we say the Our Father in Irish, (Gaelige), but i'm pretty sure a 'culture-clash' of the scale that happened at the Mass was hardly.... Harmoneous, therefore, hardly respectful. (The intentions were good though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 okay thanks. I'd be interested to see if that is a guideline set out in the document. I'll have to go through it to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1502904' date='Apr 18 2008, 06:24 PM']okay thanks. I'd be interested to see if that is a guideline set out in the document. I'll have to go through it to find out.[/quote] Its my opinion mind, i'm no canon expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 yeah but it could make logical sense for them to use that as a limit. I'll see what I find though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted April 18, 2008 Share Posted April 18, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1502698' date='Apr 18 2008, 02:58 PM']There was quite a lot more use of Spanish than was necessary. That was pandering and offensive to me as an American, and offensive to all the other minority Catholics in the U.S. Every other lector, song, or prayer was in Spanish. The only time a language other than Spanish was used was when the 6 people read the intentions. There could have been more music in other foreign languages. Even when the choir performed a traditional Latin hymn, it was backed by Mexican folk instrumentation. Outrageous. I had really had enough of it. Who told the Holy Father that America is a bi-lingual nation and that it was okay to essentially crowd out all the other ethic Catholics in favor of pandering to the Hispanics? We preach equality, but it's not practiced on the small, noticeable levels.[/quote] Okay... last I heard, there is only one "official" language in the United States of America, and that is (US) English. Correct me if I'm wrong... But anywho, I didn't enjoy the music either... [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1502709' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:17 PM']Apparently it is limited. The fundamental problem is the way in which you see the purpose of the Mass. The Mass does not exist to please YOU or excite YOU. It certainly is not there to entertain YOU. That is individualism. The Mass at the national stadium went against everything Pope Benedict has said about the liturgy and you could see it on his face. American Catholicism will never die out - GOD FORBID! Hopefully though we will see an end to this liberalism and a return to the tradition of the Holy Catholic Church so people will once again respect the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The commentators were right to point out that multi-culturalism causes division, not unity. A Mass said in Latin according the the norms and universal rubrics brings true unity.[/quote] Amen through and through [quote name='Paladin D' post='1502711' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:18 PM']I really didn't have a problem with the different languages (the music on the other hand...), but if they were going to do this whole multiculturalism ordeal, I then wish there was more representation of some of the European ethnicities, which greatly contributed to the history of the Catholic Church in the US (especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries). Such as the Irish, Polish, German, and Italian immigrants to name a few. I'm predominately Polish, and we received practically no representation (compared to the hispanic, African, etc). The hispanic Catholic population is no doubt an influential one in this country today, but we cannot forget those that came before us. Yet again, I'm not upset over it. Just found it interesting the way they chose to focus only on certain groups over others.[/quote] Yeah, that's what I was thinking during this thread too... big Italian communities, Polish, etc. That American mass was not equal enough Some people might have to go through some equality training courses [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502731' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:38 PM']The multiculturalism was unneccesary. Il Papa already represents the whole of the Catholic Church, the mass did not need to pander to the Ethnic/Religious thing because quite frankly, cultural backgrounds was unimportant. Like Paladin D said, if they were planning to include everyone at an already universal mass, they Shouldn't have forgotten about the other ethnic Catholics who've contributed massively to the Catholic Culture in the US. Oh wait, sorry, I suppose we should reamin 'Contemporary' to give the impression that the Pope is 'in touch' with the People of America. They should have said it in the common Vernacular of the country: IE; English, or in Latin given it was a common language used by the Church its various [b]locations throughout the world[/b]. Sides, if they were really trying to be multi-cultural, why was there not any German in it? I suppose Bennedict XVI doesn't count. Sorry but the horrible music I keep hearing about and the shoddily covered up political correctness of the Mass is annoying me, I wonder what the Pope's opinion was.[/quote] The first line in your post here is quite sufficient in itself. Too bad Catholics don't see that. Heck, even a bishop is a sign of unity... I believe it was Justin Martyr who said "where the bishop is, there is the church" or something along those lines. [quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1502740' date='Apr 18 2008, 03:55 PM']If only the Church had a common Liturgical language with which to express our unity past present and future in addition to our unity throughout the world...oh wait.[/quote] lawl :chuckles: [quote name='doe-jo' post='1502831' date='Apr 18 2008, 06:19 PM']I know a solution to this multicultural/language problem... Latin!! That way, no particular ethnic group understands it... yup. [/quote] lawl [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1502833' date='Apr 18 2008, 06:21 PM']I was actually kicking that joke around my head[/quote] Knowing you, I bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 goldenchild--I dont mean to hijack the thread here, but I can't pm you... it's re my forum. I'm still watching the discussion. I'm goona try and msg qfnol. This discussion somewhat reminded me of our semi private one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 (edited) yeah no problem. I'm still posting things on there, but nothing too intense right now. waiting for interest to pick up again, but mostly just trying to work on my thesis for the overall argument (turning into a flippin' book ). Edited April 19, 2008 by goldenchild17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 (edited) my opinion: there should be one and only one form of the Mass & Liturgy translated into each and every language in the world. the one form of the Mass & Liturgy would express the universality of the Church the different languages would express the diversity of the Church. In any case, the Liturgy on earth will always be imperfect, since it is a mere reflection of the Liturgy and Christ's Eternal Sacrifice of Heaven Edited April 19, 2008 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 [quote name='Lena' post='1502736' date='Apr 18 2008, 02:49 PM']actually Spanish is a common vernacular in the US. Whereas, German is not.[/quote] It's only "common" because for the past 20 years it has been force-fed down our throats whilst pandering and catering to "the largest growing minority in America", i.e. the 10-15 million illegal immigrants who have invaded our borders. The "common" usage of Spanish is NOT a cultural phenomenon that was fostered and flowers among legalized immigrant Hispanic groups. We simply don't have that number of legal Hispanic immigrants to warrant the current use of Spanish. It got this way because of illegal aliens and the bleeding hearts who cater to them. I am PROUD to be a supporter of multiculturism both in the Church and in American society. But not this way. Hell no, not this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercy me Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1502922' date='Apr 18 2008, 07:55 PM']Okay... last I heard, there is only one "official" language in the United States of America, and that is (US) English. Correct me if I'm wrong...[/quote] Actually there is no official language in the US. There are problems everytime someone suggests that there should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts